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Thread: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Quote Originally Posted by bmcj View Post
    But even are best designer analytic programs have trouble predicting or simulating flight when the boundary layers start to go turbulent and detach (like stalls and spins).
    Sorry for the confusion, I was trying to point out that a simulation (regardless of fidelity) is as far as some people care to go.
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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Quote Originally Posted by bmcj View Post
    To readdress my reply in light of the OP's original intent (training allowed by any pilot, not just instructors), I still don't see that as acceptable to the FAA. With an instructor, the FAA has a known entity that has proven themselves capable of teaching safely as well as having a demonstrated knowledge of the Fundamentals of Instruction (the psychological element of learning). Allowing anyone to teach puts students at the risk of flying with someone who may not understand how to teach, may not be as current as they should be, and may not be able to recover from certain situations that the student gets them into. An instructor is subject to more stringent standards of performance and recurrence....
    You know, let me apply a question to this train of thought: If the testing standard remains the same, why should the FAA care who taught you? If someone taught by a CFI and someone taught by their neighbor "Joe" have to pass the exact same oral and practical exam, and those tests are sufficient to determine that the applicant has adequate knowledge and skills to operate an airplane, what matter is it where and how they got the knowledge?

    I realize that I'm turning the OP's proposition on its head a bit, in that I'm advocating for a regular flight exam, and "informal training", but all the cost is in the dual anyway.

    At first, in this thread, I was totally with you, BMCJ. But it hit me that so long as the standard is the same at the end, the end-result will be the same. The FAA mandating all the training standards and CFI qualifications is very typically bureaucratic, but isn't it the end-result that the FAA and the public really care about? A safe, knowledgeable pilot?

    Now, this means that the oral and practical might need to be revamped a little, to make them a little more rigorous. And I think biennials need to be done by an examiner (and not your neighbor "Joe"), so that we can be assured that the pilot isn't falling into some bad habits.

    What you get from a CFI, as opposed to "Joe", is the likelihood of the least-risk, most-comprehensive training. "Joe" is going to teach you to fly an airplane, but he's not going to have a complete curriculum planned out, nor is he likely to really help you much on the oral. So a CFI is the "sure thing" bet, within the limits of variation in quality of CFI's, whereas "Joe" is less likely to lead to a successful "pass" at the oral and practical. But I think that's a risk a lot of people might be wiling to take.
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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanttaja View Post
    Well...that's more market forces than suppression of single-seat aircraft.

    Few people want single-seat *licensed* aircraft (as opposed to Part 103). Most want that second seat to be able to carry a family member. I see good Fly Babies for sale for months or even years, because potential buyers want a two-seat airplane.

    The LSA certification costs for a single-seater are probably about the same as a two-seater, and the crowd killer will sell a lot better.

    Ron Wanttaja
    I counted 212 single seat designs (of the 700) in Aerocrafter Sourcebook (7th edition).
    So the market for single seat factory builts could be up to a third of all sport planes if they were available.
    But because the certification cost is about same (as you said), none are available.

    The Sport rule was created with the idea that more and more want to buy ready to fly. (Look at R/C models)
    But it isn't working for the low cost LSA. Partly because no single seat sized and cheap certified engines are available.
    The Skystar company in Utah tried to get ASTM certified. I think they are out of business now.

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    I'm curious - how do other Countries in the world (outside the USA) teach/certify flying? I suspect the methods & regulations are similar across different Countries/Government types since flying is the same. Given its relative complexity, and the consequence of failure, I fear that making training less structured might not be in the best interests of the student/passenger regardless of the test itself.

    We are trying to develop some cost effective training programs in and around EAA 461 (not Chapter affiliated per se) and they all involve someone paying through donating their time and or money - which is a great way to do it, if you have the folks who are willing.

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Why is it good to dumb down aviation to the mall rat level? The system is not hard, and wwwhhhaaaa that you will not work hard enough more to pay for a license. Welfare aviation. Reality is capitalism dictates the price. Cheap is only a short time loophole, to be filled by people wanting to take advantage of it which will bring the price back up. There is no interest in aviation because it requires responsibility. Kids are not even learning how to drive today. Not wanting to drive in two dimensions, why would they want to take on a third? Aviation is always going to be a fringe hobby and a useful tool; but there is not going to be another golden age. As much as everyone wants strength in numbers, focus should be on us doing no harm and have the majority stamp us out. Love of flying hits people and they will either do what it takes or not. Europe's model was to make you have to go LSA as public control; we have no such threat in the US; unless we cry wolf about it then it will come. I here practicing howls.

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    you are missing one big piece of this pie. how many of you own an aircraft that is Light Sport qualified, to let / work with someone that is trying to actively get their Light Sport Certificate. the major hurdle is the fact that the training must be completed in a dual setting for the 15 hours, in a standard LSA factory build aircraft. I am training in the Allegro LSA, its base cost is north of 85,000. i can fly and log solo time in my own Registered EAB that counts on the 5 hours of solo as long as it fits the LSA category.

    are you willing to let that person that is trying to get up as much as possible, borrow / rent your aircraft.

    example local FBO has only one LSA approved trainer, it has been / was down for almost 1 1/2 months due to airport upgrades and broken landing gear, how is a person supposed to continue let alone master anything, it there does not exist enough aircraft to begin with.

    Robert

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Dingus View Post
    the major hurdle is the fact that the training must be completed in a dual setting for the 15 hours, in a standard LSA factory build aircraft.
    Robert, I recently found a field in N.C. that will provide an accelerated Sport Pilot course in a Champ for $4600. That doesn't sound all that expensive since the average household credit card debt in the US is ~$16,000.

    I don't see cost as being a barrier to flying. What I do see it lack of enthusiasm toward learning how to fly.
    “The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible.” - Mark Twain

    “If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$hi+.” ― W.C. Fields

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Quote Originally Posted by TFF View Post
    Aviation is always going to be a fringe hobby and a useful tool; but there is not going to be another golden age.
    There may be another golden age but it won't be in my lifetime. Based on FAA predictions, there will be no growth through 2030 which means I'll end my flying days with aviation at 2010 activity levels. I got to ride the late '70's wave and I'm pretty happy about having those memories.
    “The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible.” - Mark Twain

    “If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$hi+.” ― W.C. Fields

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Quote Originally Posted by N8053H View Post
    Unless it's a full motion simulator you are learning very little of how an airplane really feels. Anyone who flies a real airplane and has flown on a simulator knows this.
    But there's plenty of very valuable stuff you can still do with a non-moving simulator. There are a lot of things that don't depend on feel for the aircraft, like radio calls, cross-country VFR navigation, VOR tracking, etc. that you can practice in the simulator to your heart's content without accruing Hobbs hours on taxi, runup, waiting on ATC (if applicable). It's a great environment to practice your instrument reference maneuvers before doing them for real (provided you don't develop bad habits).

    Training for large aircraft increasingly makes use of really basic simulators ("cockpit procedure trainers") that have the functionality but don't move and usually don't even have view screens. Crews use those to learn the cockpit and systems before they chew up valuable full-motion sim time. Same thing goes for brand-new students--use the simulator to go over the things that don't require feel, so that (a) you aren't burning expensive time in the airplane, and (b) when you do get in the airplane you can focus on the important stuff. The 10-20 hours are enough of a "drinking from a firehose" experience--it was for me, anyway, and I had a lot of PC simulator time and other aeronautical knowledge before taking my first lesson. I didn't have to learn what a pattern was, or what the instruments were, or what the controls did (feel for them is another matter).

    The other use for even simple simulators is for stress training. If you've done any kind of high-stress simulation before, you'll know that when you're in the middle of it you tend to forget it's a simulation. For me, it was training on the fire department. Your heart races, the adrenaline flows. Anyway, the idea is to use the simulator to put students in high-stress dangerous situations and let them fly all the way to the crash, if that's where they get. Things like engine failures after takeoff, gradual VFR into IMC, rising terrain, etc. You want to break the panic reaction. It's kind of the same idea behind Red Flag, where crews were put into situations as close to realistic combat as possible in training after it was realized that the first five combat missions tended to have the highest losses.

    The above idea on stress training came from a discussion on VAF about distractions like open doors leading to accidents. Our theory was that pilots aren't thinking "save the airplane", contrary to most assertions, but rather that a distraction has happened and the stress of the situation put them into a mental autopilot. Its kind of like how you have to consciously train yourself not to grab the falling hot thing you just welded, or the tipping-over sheet of plate steel, or the lunchbox that's flying off the passenger seat as you go around a sharp curve. The instinct says "the door's open, close it" and you have to train yourself to ignore it. The simulator is a perfect place for doing that.
    I reserve the right to be smarter tomorrow than I was yesterday.

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Quote Originally Posted by gtae07 View Post
    But there's plenty of very valuable stuff you can still do with a non-moving simulator. There are a lot of things that don't depend on feel for the aircraft, like radio calls, cross-country VFR navigation, VOR tracking, etc. that you can practice in the simulator to your heart's content without accruing Hobbs hours on taxi, runup, waiting on ATC (if applicable). It's a great environment to practice your instrument reference maneuvers before doing them for real (provided you don't develop bad habits).

    Training for large aircraft increasingly makes use of really basic simulators ("cockpit procedure trainers") that have the functionality but don't move and usually don't even have view screens. Crews use those to learn the cockpit and systems before they chew up valuable full-motion sim time. Same thing goes for brand-new students--use the simulator to go over the things that don't require feel, so that (a) you aren't burning expensive time in the airplane, and (b) when you do get in the airplane you can focus on the important stuff. The 10-20 hours are enough of a "drinking from a firehose" experience--it was for me, anyway, and I had a lot of PC simulator time and other aeronautical knowledge before taking my first lesson. I didn't have to learn what a pattern was, or what the instruments were, or what the controls did (feel for them is another matter).

    The other use for even simple simulators is for stress training. If you've done any kind of high-stress simulation before, you'll know that when you're in the middle of it you tend to forget it's a simulation. For me, it was training on the fire department. Your heart races, the adrenaline flows. Anyway, the idea is to use the simulator to put students in high-stress dangerous situations and let them fly all the way to the crash, if that's where they get. Things like engine failures after takeoff, gradual VFR into IMC, rising terrain, etc. You want to break the panic reaction. It's kind of the same idea behind Red Flag, where crews were put into situations as close to realistic combat as possible in training after it was realized that the first five combat missions tended to have the highest losses.

    The above idea on stress training came from a discussion on VAF about distractions like open doors leading to accidents. Our theory was that pilots aren't thinking "save the airplane", contrary to most assertions, but rather that a distraction has happened and the stress of the situation put them into a mental autopilot. Its kind of like how you have to consciously train yourself not to grab the falling hot thing you just welded, or the tipping-over sheet of plate steel, or the lunchbox that's flying off the passenger seat as you go around a sharp curve. The instinct says "the door's open, close it" and you have to train yourself to ignore it. The simulator is a perfect place for doing that.
    To use a non-motion simulator then try to fly a single seat without additional training or dual time. Foolish to say the least. As for stress in emergency's. Flying my simulator is stress free for me anyway. If I crash the program will reset itself. I try not to crash but if I do so be it.
    But the day my engine came apart at 1000' and I lost not only the reduction unit but the prop too. Nothing I have done on the simulator will ever amount to the stress I felt that day. One thing saved my bacon that day, training. I say training for as soon as I knew there was a problem all I did was fly the airplane. It was not until it was on the ground did I start to ask questions like,,what the heck just happened. The radio did play a part for a good friend talked me to my landing point. I then was able to communicate with him as he circled over head. He came up with a plan and told me to sit tight. I was in the middle of a field and not going anywhere. Thirty mins later here he comes in his truck.

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Quote Originally Posted by TFF View Post
    Why is it good to dumb down aviation to the mall rat level? The system is not hard, and wwwhhhaaaa that you will not work hard enough more to pay for a license. Welfare aviation. Reality is capitalism dictates the price. Cheap is only a short time loophole, to be filled by people wanting to take advantage of it which will bring the price back up. There is no interest in aviation because it requires responsibility. Kids are not even learning how to drive today. Not wanting to drive in two dimensions, why would they want to take on ai third? Aviation is always going to be a fringe hobby and a useful tool; but there is not going to be another golden age. As much as everyone wants strength in numbers, focus should be on us doing no harm and have the majority stamp us out. Love of flying hits people and they will either do what it takes or not. Europe's model was to make you have to go LSA as public control; we have no such threat in the US; unless we cry wolf about it then it will come. I here practicing howls.
    We have to be careful not to cross the line between common goals and elitism. We all worked hard and dedicated ourselves to learning and becoming safe pilots, so it is natural to fall into the "he's not a real pilot because he didn't have to work on it as hard or spend as much money" trap. I think the goal of the OP is to make learning easier and cheaper for those who already have the bug. If we want to draw the neutrals into aviation, then we need to enhance the image of pilots and flying to the general public to a level like it was in the 50's and 60's. We don't want to draw people into flying if they don't have a passion for it, but we should endeavor to introduce that passion to a greater percentage of the people.

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Quote Originally Posted by Topaz View Post
    You know, let me apply a question to this train of thought: If the testing standard remains the same, why should the FAA care who taught you? If someone taught by a CFI and someone taught by their neighbor "Joe" have to pass the exact same oral and practical exam, and those tests are sufficient to determine that the applicant has adequate knowledge and skills to operate an airplane, what matter is it where and how they got the knowledge?

    I realize that I'm turning the OP's proposition on its head a bit, in that I'm advocating for a regular flight exam, and "informal training", but all the cost is in the dual anyway.

    At first, in this thread, I was totally with you, BMCJ. But it hit me that so long as the standard is the same at the end, the end-result will be the same. The FAA mandating all the training standards and CFI qualifications is very typically bureaucratic, but isn't it the end-result that the FAA and the public really care about? A safe, knowledgeable pilot?

    Now, this means that the oral and practical might need to be revamped a little, to make them a little more rigorous. And I think biennials need to be done by an examiner (and not your neighbor "Joe"), so that we can be assured that the pilot isn't falling into some bad habits.

    What you get from a CFI, as opposed to "Joe", is the likelihood of the least-risk, most-comprehensive training. "Joe" is going to teach you to fly an airplane, but he's not going to have a complete curriculum planned out, nor is he likely to really help you much on the oral. So a CFI is the "sure thing" bet, within the limits of variation in quality of CFI's, whereas "Joe" is less likely to lead to a successful "pass" at the oral and practical. But I think that's a risk a lot of people might be wiling to take.
    Post # 32 I wrote:

    I do believe that many people could be taught to fly by their pilot friends, simulators, and such. The concern for me isn't so much where they get their training as to the quality of it.

    For that reason I later added that perhaps a three hour prep for certificate testing by a CFI might be required. This would help spot defects in the training and give a first look at whether the applicant were truly ready to advance. If the CFI truly believed the applicant had a clear understanding of the fundamentals and were safe to fly single seat in a low & slow aircraft they would send them on for the written, oral, and flight test.
    I don't believe we are too far apart on what I'm driving at. The quality of the training is the key. As many have pointed out there are some pretty poor instructors making money turning out students that are not very well trained. If the applicant can pass the same testing as the ones who went through the FAA mandated hours + system then should they not have the right to the same license? Even if some additional test hours were required to assure the student had a good comprehension of the fundamentals?

    Seems to me they should. I know aircraft are much different that automobiles, motorcycles, & boats ... but people find ways to learn from friends and family as well as professionals for all kinds of things for which a license is required. If you can pass the test you get the license.

    Dale
    N319WF

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    you are missing one big piece of this pie. how many of you own an aircraft that is Light Sport
    Isn't instruction in a certified plane applicable toward your Light Sport time requirement?

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
    Robert, I recently found a field in N.C. that will provide an accelerated Sport Pilot course in a Champ for $4600. That doesn't sound all that expensive since the average household credit card debt in the US is ~$16,000.

    I don't see cost as being a barrier to flying. What I do see it lack of enthusiasm toward learning how to fly.
    Sounds like you're talking about Greg Collins. Got my tail wheel endorsement from him a few years ago. Really good guy and highly recommended. Loved the Champ!

    http://websites.expercraft.com/daleandee/?q=training

    Dale
    N319WF
    Last edited by Daleandee; December 13th, 2016 at 05:37 PM.

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Quote Originally Posted by bmcj View Post
    Isn't instruction in a certified plane applicable toward your Light Sport time requirement?
    Yes but most going after the SP do it for a couple reasons. One of those reasons is cost. So to train as a PP then use this training for SP you are spending more money then needed. Some will argue the cost of training is what it is matters not if its SP or PP. But I say bull to this.

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