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Thread: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

  1. #31
    Registered User Wanttaja's Avatar
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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Quote Originally Posted by BBerson View Post
    EAA won't do anything. It has been 12 years since EAA pushed through Light Sport and not a single one seater has passed certification under Light Sport standards.
    It's like asking Honda to build another two seat car like my 91’ CRX, not gonna happen.
    Well...that's more market forces than suppression of single-seat aircraft.

    Few people want single-seat *licensed* aircraft (as opposed to Part 103). Most want that second seat to be able to carry a family member. I see good Fly Babies for sale for months or even years, because potential buyers want a two-seat airplane.

    The LSA certification costs for a single-seater are probably about the same as a two-seater, and the crowd killer will sell a lot better.

    Ron Wanttaja

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    Registered User Daleandee's Avatar
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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Quote Originally Posted by BBerson View Post
    The title of this thread is probably worded wrong.
    What he suggested in post #1 was this:

    "The concept is rather simple in design. It would allow a person to receive a low speed (less than 87 knots - the FAA likes that number) single seat only, no medical pilots license with training of the applicants choice. Much like learning to drive where a person is taught by their parents, grandparents, a friend or even a professional driving school with an instructor."
    Probably so ... but I didn't know quite how to say what I was driving at and still I see a few that thought I was advocating self training as in "no one teaches the new applicant." That's not it at all. I just believe that if the cost of training were reduced greatly and the concern of finding an instructor was not required for so many hours then it might give some a reason to want to get in the game. I do believe that many people could be taught to fly by their pilot friends, simulators, and such. The concern for me isn't so much where they get their training as to the quality of it.

    For that reason I later added that perhaps a three hour prep for certificate testing by a CFI might be required. This would help spot defects in the training and give a first look at whether the applicant were truly ready to advance. If the CFI truly believed the applicant had a clear understanding of the fundamentals and were safe to fly single seat in a low & slow aircraft they would send them on for the written, oral, and flight test. These three tests could even be administered by different examiners to provide more trainers an opportunity to locate any fault with the applicant.

    I'm fully aware that this will never, ever, happen but thought the conversation might be enjoyable.

    Dale
    N319WF

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Quote Originally Posted by N8053H View Post
    No where does it say your training cannot be done like the testing in a single seat.
    Actually, it does say that cannot be done. The where is 14CFR Part 61. There's at least three areas which prohibit that activity: definitions, logging time and the part defining aeronautical experience for he appropriate certificate or rating. Just having an instructor on board is not adequate either, has to have a full set of functioning controls.

    The only place where would could train a student in a single seat machine would be Part 103.
    “The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible.” - Mark Twain

    “If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$hi+.” ― W.C. Fields

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
    Actually, it does say that cannot be done. The where is 14CFR Part 61. There's at least three areas which prohibit that activity: definitions, logging time and the part defining aeronautical experience for he appropriate certificate or rating. Just having an instructor on board is not adequate either, has to have a full set of functioning controls.

    The only place where would could train a student in a single seat machine would be Part 103.
    Yes when you fly your dual time your instructor must have controls or the airplane must have dual controls.

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Self Taught..those days are gone...you must start out with a CFI. It's called Dual time and yes the instructor " CFI " must have all controls at his disposal or the airplane must be set up with dual controls.

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Everyone knows you need dual time. You need 15 hrs dual time, 5 hrs solo time. It does not matter if you have one seat or two during this solo time. Are you not flying a single seat when the seat next to you is empty anyway? Those dual controls do you no good now. You can fly those 5 hrs in your single seat and I know a cfi that allows it. But yes you must have dual time first.

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Quote Originally Posted by N8053H View Post
    I say this was a loaded thread to begin with. Everyone knows you need dual time. You need 15 hrs dual time, 5 hrs solo time. It does not matter if you have one seat or two during this solo time. Are you not flying a single seat when the seat next to you is empty anyway? Those dual controls do you no good now. You can fly those 5 hrs in your single seat and I know a cfi that allows it. But yes you must have dual time first.
    Not at all a "loaded thread."

    The OP postulated a different learning / licensing scheme as a way to get more people involved in sport aviation.


    BJC

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Quote Originally Posted by BJC View Post
    Not at all a "loaded thread."

    The OP postulated a different learning / licensing scheme as a way to get more people involved in sport aviation.


    BJC
    There are many other threads already on this same subject. Why start a new? But the regs are what they are. Want to get more involved, you won't do it by posting here. Contact those who make the laws and ask for change. But you better spell out in black and white without a doubt what change you want, or the change you get may not be the change you want.

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    The OP was trying to find a new way to train versus the current expensive process in "beater" Cessna 150s.

    Red Bird is already working in this direction with multiple sumiluators convenient to prospective students.

    I suggested that we harness the - massive - computer gaming industry to allow students to gain stick-and-rudder time on home simulators. All those home practice/gaming sessions would be scored via the internet. Once the student achieves level "X", he/she gets a free dual flight in a Katana, then pays for enough dual time to satisfy requirements for the practical test. Written tests are done separately, via the Internet.

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    To readdress my reply in light of the OP's original intent (training allowed by any pilot, not just instructors), I still don't see that as acceptable to the FAA. With an instructor, the FAA has a known entity that has proven themselves capable of teaching safely as well as having a demonstrated knowledge of the Fundamentals of Instruction (the psychological element of learning). Allowing anyone to teach puts students at the risk of flying with someone who may not understand how to teach, may not be as current as they should be, and may not be able to recover from certain situations that the student gets them into. An instructor is subject to more stringent standards of performance and recurrence.

    There is nothing wrong with someone giving a friend some 'unofficial' stick time and pointers in his plane... it may help that student stay within the 40 hour requirement when he is renting and paying an instructor, rather than the more typical 50-70 hours, but be careful not to teach any bad habits.

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Quote Originally Posted by Riggerrob View Post
    The OP was trying to find a new way to train versus the current expensive process in "beater" Cessna 150s.

    Red Bird is already working in this direction with multiple sumiluators convenient to prospective students.

    I suggested that we harness the - massive - computer gaming industry to allow students to gain stick-and-rudder time on home simulators. All those home practice/gaming sessions would be scored via the internet. Once the student achieves level "X", he/she gets a free dual flight in a Katana, then pays for enough dual time to satisfy requirements for the practical test. Written tests are done separately, via the Internet.
    Unless it's a full motion simulator you are learning very little of how an airplane really feels. Anyone who flies a real airplane and has flown on a simulator knows this. SP is the cheapest way to go. The thing to find is a CFI who trains SP and will do it at the bare bones level.

    The only way to get reduced cost in training is to be born a women. There are women who train other women for a reduced cost. They do this to help support the female pilot population. I have said many times with these women can do this for each other, why not others? It has to do with a way of thinking. I have spoke with some who grew up in the early years of aviation. They told me aviators helped each other back in those times. How times have changed.

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Quote Originally Posted by Riggerrob View Post
    The OP was trying to find a new way to train versus the current expensive process in "beater" Cessna 150s.

    Red Bird is already working in this direction with multiple sumiluators convenient to prospective students.

    I suggested that we harness the - massive - computer gaming industry to allow students to gain stick-and-rudder time on home simulators. All those home practice/gaming sessions would be scored via the internet. Once the student achieves level "X", he/she gets a free dual flight in a Katana, then pays for enough dual time to satisfy requirements for the practical test. Written tests are done separately, via the Internet.
    What if the applicant is content at the gaming level? What if simulation is as good as, or better than actually flying? They earn the free dual flight but they are not interested in flying an actual aircraft?
    One of my sons is very interested in flying. He will hop in a "beater" Cessna 150 in a heatbeat because he likes to fly, to control the aircraft, in flight. The fact that it's a beater does not deter him in the least. If you told him he can have 1 hr in a fancy new Katana or 2 hrs in a beater C-150, the would take the C-150 because that offers more quantity. I think that quashes the notion that hardware is responsible for lack of arousal.
    “The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible.” - Mark Twain

    “If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$hi+.” ― W.C. Fields

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    Registered User bmcj's Avatar
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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
    What if the applicant is content at the gaming level? What if simulation is as good as, or better than actually flying? They earn the free dual flight but they are not interested in flying an actual aircraft?
    One of my sons is very interested in flying. He will hop in a "beater" Cessna 150 in a heatbeat because he likes to fly, to control the aircraft, in flight. The fact that it's a beater does not deter him in the least. If you told him he can have 1 hr in a fancy new Katana or 2 hrs in a beater C-150, the would take the C-150 because that offers more quantity. I think that quashes the notion that hardware is responsible for lack of arousal.
    But even are best designer analytic programs have trouble predicting or simulating flight when the boundary layers start to go turbulent and detach (like stalls and spins).

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    Quote Originally Posted by bmcj View Post
    To readdress my reply in light of the OP's original intent (training allowed by any pilot, not just instructors), I still don't see that as acceptable to the FAA. With an instructor, the FAA has a known entity that has proven themselves capable of teaching safely as well as having a demonstrated knowledge of the Fundamentals of Instruction (the psychological element of learning). Allowing anyone to teach puts students at the risk of flying with someone who may not understand how to teach, may not be as current as they should be, and may not be able to recover from certain situations that the student gets them into. An instructor is subject to more stringent standards of performance and recurrence.

    There is nothing wrong with someone giving a friend some 'unofficial' stick time and pointers in his plane... it may help that student stay within the 40 hour requirement when he is renting and paying an instructor, rather than the more typical 50-70 hours, but be careful not to teach any bad habits.
    You would think that becoming a CFI would guarantee a certain minimum standard, but in my experience, its just not the case. I would say 9 out of 10 instructors I have flown with are abysmal teachers. As as as the "Fundamentals Of Instruction" goes, it's the first thing they throw out of the window, and many laugh about it. Prime concern is getting hours, not teaching. One well known instructor here at Corona is famous for being and ass; rude,crass with zero people skills and setting his own standards, whether they make sense or not. I don't understand how these people still get students, but when you go to flight school, you usually don't know any better and put up with their crap.

    In Britain and Germany and France, decades ago, it used to be common to have non-profit clubs where the instructors took no money at all. Not sure if that still exists, but it seems one way make learning more affordable. Plenty of older, retired CFIs out there, and if I had nothing better to do and was qualified, I'd certainly volunteer some time for the cause.
    "Aeronautical engineering is highly educated guessing, worked out to five decimal places. Fred Lindsley, Airspeed."

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    Re: Self Taught Pilot's License - Single Seat Sport

    I agree with you PT, but I was speaking on behalf of the FAA (at least, how I think they would view this).

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