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Thread: So if I flew up into a cloud...

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    Re: So if I flew up into a cloud...

    I have seen dozens and dozens of RC models spiral in when the pilot loses their orientation which is similar to a pilot flying into clouds and not being able to follow instruments to fly safely out. A little trick for the RC'ers I will offer now. As long as the airplane is well trimmed, just release the controls to neutral, then just apply up elevator so that the model starts looping. With any reasonable starting altitude the plane will pretty much stay in one portion of the sky, though during the loops slowly lose altitude. What it does is give you time to find someone to assist in the recovery. I flew a 150 mph quickie through the sun a couple of winters ago, and while it took about a minute for someone with young eyes to locate it, he managed to see it, get oriented and land it after killing the engine.

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    Registered User choppergirl's Avatar
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    Re: So if I flew up into a cloud...

    Speaking of calibrating plumb bobs, I need to send our gauge blocks in to be calibrated... according to my cheap chinese calipers they keep going out of calibration. :-p
    CHOPPERGIRL @ AIR-WAR.ORG ~ Flying with Christina
    My grandfather flew 171 combat missions in the P-38, P-39, and P-47; my dad was an air traffic controller and 170 pilot; my mom sold travel luggage to Mohamed Atta, the 9/11 hijacker mastermind; I'm restoring Dorothy, a Volmer Jensen VJ-24W motor glider I bought on eBay for $38, and Alice, a Chotia Woodhopper I bought on Barnstormers for $99. I'm in no hurry; doing it to fly, and to learn how to restore hopeless case ultralights.

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    Registered User BJC's Avatar
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    Re: So if I flew up into a cloud...

    Quote Originally Posted by choppergirl View Post
    Speaking of calibrating plumb bobs, I need to send our gauge blocks in to be calibrated... according to my cheap chinese calipers they keep going out of calibration. :-p

    I'm sure that you corrected for temperature .....


    BJC

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    Re: So if I flew up into a cloud...

    Quote Originally Posted by choppergirl View Post
    Speaking of calibrating plumb bobs, I need to send our gauge blocks in to be calibrated... according to my cheap chinese calipers they keep going out of calibration. :-p
    Precision measuring tools are somewhat perplexing for the FAA. They insist measuring tools have to be calibrated. I have shown them a large frame micrometer can change several 10ths just from temperature variation, so you "calibrate" it before every use with a standard. The standard is accurate at only one temperature and the better standards have a insulating block to grip the standard with so body temp doesn't affect the dimension. Anything that measures in increments less than 1/4" and they not sure how to handle that.
    “The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible.” - Mark Twain

    “If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$hi+.” ― W.C. Fields

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    Re: So if I flew up into a cloud...

    I have calibrated eyeballs to make sure things are in spec. Down to Pi cut into to pieces and eaten.

  6. #126
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    Re: So if I flew up into a cloud...

    Quote Originally Posted by TFF View Post
    Pff, Kadet Sr. Everyone knows MK1 is the only Kadet. Unlucky since they have not made the kit in years, I made my sons MKII a 3 channel. He never got into it so I take it out some times. 3 channel is easy to fly but hard to be precise.
    Forget the name then, and try it. With the Kadet Senior, everything happens sloooowly... It's really amazing and really easy. It only takes a 0.4 cubic inch 2 stroke to fly. Plus it thermals a lot better than the others. I'll admit I have seen a Mark II thermal for 3 minutes, without a cowling, but it wouldn't be my choice. I thermalled the Senior because I am not good with engines and it stopped. I was hoping to get high enough to give the controls back to my student. A full sized airplane which behaved similarly would be a good trainer, at least at first, and would be very relaxing to fly. The Senior doesn't fly like the original Kadet, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Highplains View Post
    I have seen dozens and dozens of RC models spiral in when the pilot loses their orientation which is similar to a pilot flying into clouds and not being able to follow instruments to fly safely out. A little trick for the RC'ers I will offer now. As long as the airplane is well trimmed, just release the controls to neutral, then just apply up elevator so that the model starts looping. With any reasonable starting altitude the plane will pretty much stay in one portion of the sky, though during the loops slowly lose altitude. What it does is give you time to find someone to assist in the recovery. I flew a 150 mph quickie through the sun a couple of winters ago, and while it took about a minute for someone with young eyes to locate it, he managed to see it, get oriented and land it after killing the engine.
    I've lost orientation many times, but never long enough to hit the ground. It's especially bad close to sunset. I fly gliders/sailplanes (depends on size of ego) and am often flying a long ways off. I've used the loop trick then. Much easier to see it when things are changing that fast. It's really exciting if the clouds are low and you get into them off the launch, because after a few seconds you don't know where to look.

    One day I was on Cape Cod practicing landings under about a 100 foot ceiling. I would just loop off the hi start* as soon as the model disappeared. Worked fine.

    *stretched rubber and fishing line works like a winch or pulling up a kite

    Quote Originally Posted by THRC12 View Post
    I have calibrated eyeballs to make sure things are in spec. Down to Pi cut into to pieces and eaten.
    How many pieces? Have you done the same with e?

    --------
    BTW, I have seen setups where, if you push a button, the model comes back and lands where it started. Maybe take one of those on board on hazy days. ;-) The on-board video is interesting if there are trees almost in the way. The following system, which is, I think, an ancestor to one that made the video with trees, is no longer available retail, unfortunately:
    http://www.uthere.com/video/video_index.html
    I guess it's capable enough that he can sell to commercial UAV companies and others.

  7. #127
    Registered User Beragoobruce's Avatar
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    Re: So if I flew up into a cloud...

    After reading through this thread, including CG's responses along the way, it's not clear to me whether she is still of the opinion that a plumbob will be of some help or not in VMC.

    This same 'solution' was mooted in a recent hangar discussion at my local airfield, & the following helped to disabuse the pro-plumbobbers.

    You fly around a conventional loop, keeping airspeed constant (!) and wings level, not deviating from heading. This is a 2g+ manoeuvre, so how will the plumbob behave?
    The answer is it will point almost straight 'down' to the floor at all times, due to the centripetal force induced by the loop.

    So whether the plane is pointing straight up, straight down, or inverted at the top of the loop, the plumbob, airspeed & magnetic compass are all showing very similar readings throughout the manoeuvre (this is also true of a well performed barrel roll). Not good if you have no visual reference on the horizon!

    As to making complex inferences from subtle deviations in the plumbob, most low hour pilots will, in perfect CAVU conditions, struggle to calculate a reciprocal compass heading, or even work out compass headings on each leg while in a circuit away from home. It is amazing how much concentration & thinking power is absorbed in simple flying tasks, never mind anything more complex under the sort of stress induced in unintentional blind flying.

    CG has evoked an interesting discussion, but until she flies, she won't understand the difference between reading about it and doing it. I hope she's able to get airborne soon - I'm sure she'll love it.

  8. #128
    Registered User BBerson's Avatar
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    Re: So if I flew up into a cloud...

    After the wings come off, the plumb bob will function normally again.

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    Re: So if I flew up into a cloud...

    The only use of a plumb bob is to find "down" by throwing it out the window.

    Very few planes will complete a semi-round loop with a 2 g pull, and the airspeed will vary considerably around the loop.


    BJC

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    Re: So if I flew up into a cloud...

    It's the spiral dive that does you in. Regardless of the size of the airplane.

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    Re: So if I flew up into a cloud...

    The only Sr Kadet I built, I built with ailerons. Worst adverse yaw I have ever seen in a RC plane. I thought I had the ailerons reversed on the first flight; that bad. Best SrK was a club member built it as a low wing with open cockpit fuselage; cool. I dead stick the KII almost exclusively. Unless you are low you can always make the field. Saves props; had the same prop on it for 6 years till i took a chunk out stating it; its only had 3 prop mounted. I prefer easier planes to fly like pattern planes day to day, but live for my scale WW1 stuff.

    As for the plum bobs, they cost each $20,000,000 and you get a free jet when you buy it; they better hang straight.

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    Registered User Dan Thomas's Avatar
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    Re: So if I flew up into a cloud...

    Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9pvG_ZSnCc

    Then tell us if a plumb bob or spirit level or any other gravity-sensing device will work for IFR flying...

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    Re: So if I flew up into a cloud...

    Quote Originally Posted by Highplains View Post
    It's the spiral dive that does you in. Regardless of the size of the airplane.
    The latest R/C trainers have automatic wing levelers that completely eliminate the spiral dive. Quite remarkable.
    Most students can learn now in one or two lessons. Called SAFE. It prevents dives and stalls also.
    I wonder when the FAA will allow it in full size?

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    Re: So if I flew up into a cloud...

    And if John John was smart enough to re-engage his autopilot he would have been President.

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    Re: So if I flew up into a cloud...

    You've just flown into a cloud and are experiencing whiteout and there is no turning back. You brilliant aeronauts have 30 seconds to improvise some other oh **** device to save yourself. What are you going to do?

    BJC just threw my plumb bob out the window to figure out which was was down... so I'm pulling out my yo-yo, since I don't generally carry a gyroscope around in my pocket...

    Well, BJC just threw my yo-yo out the window as well.. followed by a steady stream of "stuff" he is chucking over board. There goes the emergency transponder.

    If only I could see the stuff once it left the airplane, it might help.... because, well, we're in a thick cloud. I can't see **** outside.

    Looks like BJC just ran out of stuff to throw overboard. Now he is chanting "Brace brace brace! Heads down, stay down!"

    I'm holding the altitude steady with the elevator, and the compass steady with the rudder...

    Think, Choppergirl, you've got 5 seconds left...
    Last edited by choppergirl; January 11th, 2017 at 02:02 AM.
    CHOPPERGIRL @ AIR-WAR.ORG ~ Flying with Christina
    My grandfather flew 171 combat missions in the P-38, P-39, and P-47; my dad was an air traffic controller and 170 pilot; my mom sold travel luggage to Mohamed Atta, the 9/11 hijacker mastermind; I'm restoring Dorothy, a Volmer Jensen VJ-24W motor glider I bought on eBay for $38, and Alice, a Chotia Woodhopper I bought on Barnstormers for $99. I'm in no hurry; doing it to fly, and to learn how to restore hopeless case ultralights.

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