Page 2 of 34 FirstFirst 1234567812 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 501

Thread: Crashes in the News - Thread

  1. #16
    Registered User Little Scrapper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    2,488
    Likes (Given)
    1506
    Likes (Received)
    1177

    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BJC View Post
    They usually state facts, but for GA aircraft, they seldom provide the details of the series of events that led up to the root cause of the crash.


    BJC
    Bingo!

    So I say this, if learning safety is truly a desire from this thread where do we start?

    Posting links to the F16 crash is NOT a safety discussion. So right off the bat the thread is derailed. I know I'm blunt, and direct, but safety is a critical issues. Again, I give CG a pass because she has zero experience. Things become rather "real" when your actually in the air.

  2. #17
    Registered User narfi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    339
    Likes (Given)
    145
    Likes (Received)
    148

    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Scrapper View Post
    "what moron would do this in an airplane?"
    We all do stupid things.
    We all do things we know we shouldn't.
    We all do them for varying reasons, but two of the top ones are complacency/comfort in what we are familiar with, and spacing out/being distracted by something either external (something we see or feel that catches our attention) or internal (thinking about something else).

    I do not believe anyone is immune to these two issues.
    However, we can protect ourselves from them with two great tools.

    1. Habitual use of checklists/proper methods.
    2. Consistently familiarizing ourselves with the consequences.

  3. Likes Little Scrapper, Glider liked this post
  4. #18
    Registered User don january's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    right now in the melting snow of N.D.
    Posts
    1,798
    Likes (Given)
    1103
    Likes (Received)
    509

    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    I think crashes in the "NEW'S" is the down side to this thread. For one it's plastered all over the tube and like many say the total fact's never are disclosed. Heck if CG want's to talk crashes or anyone else I myself can give you 5 or 6 real life event's that has many thing's to learn from, rather it's plane or pilot error. I think the thread would be more suited as "Crashes what we've learned" for instance My dad went down in a spray plane year's ago because of a fuel issue, and many friend's and family wanted to know what happened. I remember the pain in my father's eye's when he tried to explain it to people concerned. He all way's took total responsibility for the crash even though the reason the plane ran out of fuel was in fact because the loader didn't refuel it. So there is the lesson learned for me. When your in control of a craft, Rather spraying crop's or just at a sunday fly in. Never put responsibility of aircraft need's on someone else, even if the person is getting paid to fill the tank's or grease the tail wheel, because if ya go down you have only yourself to blame no matter what the fact's are.
    KR-2, Taylor Mono,

  5. #19
    Registered User Lucrum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Canton, GA
    Posts
    764
    Likes (Given)
    184
    Likes (Received)
    120

    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Scrapper View Post
    Sure, failure to maintain altitude is certainly a fact. Those aren't the facts I'm referring to, I mean the ones that are almost always missing.
    OK. Examples?
    ...If you forget this, you will be subjected to a four phase aeronautical process that dates back to the early 1900s. Stall, spin, crash and burn. Phase 4 requires some amount of fuel on board at time of impact.

  6. #20
    Registered User Little Scrapper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    2,488
    Likes (Given)
    1506
    Likes (Received)
    1177

    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by narfi View Post
    We all do stupid things.
    We all do things we know we shouldn't.
    We all do them for varying reasons, but two of the top ones are complacency/comfort in what we are familiar with, and spacing out/being distracted by something either external (something we see or feel that catches our attention) or internal (thinking about something else).

    I do not believe anyone is immune to these two issues.
    However, we can protect ourselves from them with two great tools.

    1. Habitual use of checklists/proper methods.
    2. Consistently familiarizing ourselves with the consequences.
    I agree, I think that's fair.

    My question of course, with respect, is how does this tread act as a learning tool. Again, posting multiple links to the F16 crash is childish and not a means of learning in any way shape or form. It's like the National Enquirer.

  7. #21
    Registered User Lucrum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Canton, GA
    Posts
    764
    Likes (Given)
    184
    Likes (Received)
    120

    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BJC View Post
    They usually state facts, but for GA aircraft, they seldom provide the details of the series of events that led up to the root cause of the crash.


    BJC
    Admittedly I don't read NTSB reports everyday. But I wasn't aware they left out such details for GA aircraft. They certainly investigate them for airlines etc.
    ...If you forget this, you will be subjected to a four phase aeronautical process that dates back to the early 1900s. Stall, spin, crash and burn. Phase 4 requires some amount of fuel on board at time of impact.

  8. #22
    Registered User narfi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    339
    Likes (Given)
    145
    Likes (Received)
    148

    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Scrapper View Post
    posting multiple links to the F16 crash is .............. like the National Enquirer.
    I agree...
    Sometimes (often?) I get carried away because arguing on the internet is 'fun'. (I can pick either side and run with it)

    In CGs defense, she did say it was local for her, and that is interesting to her. I didn't follow the links or read them because they hold no interest for me as someone more interested in general aviation and wanting to get into home built aviation. That doesn't mean there is anything inherently wrong with her interest (it is still aviation related), or that the idea of the thread is inherently wrong. It just means that it isn't interesting to me. Maybe I misunderstood the purpose, but I do not have any problem with a thread that catalogs accidents (all that interest any members here) over time. That was just the first submission since it was fresh in her mind. Over time I can see it as a long thread with potential for some interesting comments which an interested person could go back and read through creating different profiles in their own mind as they go.

    I have read many long long threads on this forum dating back years, and I can see this becoming one. (if its not derailed before it starts with discussing the merits/problems with itself)

    Perhaps we could discuss how a thread such as that should be played out, hash out some 'ground rules' for posting discussing in such a thread and she could start fresh?

  9. Likes BBerson liked this post
  10. #23
    Registered User Dan Thomas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    4,065
    Likes (Given)
    160
    Likes (Received)
    1534

    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    There are many versions of the Pilot's Ten Commandments. This is my heavily edited version:

    The Pilot's Ten Commandments

    1. Ignore not thy checklist, for many are the valves, switches, levers and handles waiting to take vengeance upon thee.

    2. Trifle not with the thunderstorm, for thy wings and tailfeathers are like to be shorn from thine airplane and thy self be cast upon the earth.

    3. Thou shalt not commit overgrossing, nor shalt thy center of gravity be beyond limits, for the laws of gravity shall surely judge the ignorant and the errant.

    4. Diligently look to thy left and to thy right as thou journeyest through the skies, for behold the other aeroplane cometh quickly and thou shalt meet it in the air.

    5. Buzz not, lest thou incur the wrath of thy neighbor and bring the fury of Transport Canada upon thine head and shoulders. For lo, many are the fools who perish at low level when the airplane smiteth the birds of the air or the trees of the field or the wires of the electricity company.

    6. Thou shalt take the measure of thy fuel, for verily, a tankful of air at 10,000 feet is an embarrassment and as welcome as an armpit full of fleas. Yea, and even more so upon departure. For what profiteth it a man that he hath a full fuel truck at the airport yet loseth his life for an empty tank?

    7. Push not through the scud, lest the angels be waiting on the other side.

    8. Beware of the weather prophets, for the truth is not always in them.

    9. Beware the intersection takeoff, for runway behind thee and altitude above thee are no better than another hole in the head.

    10. Be not ignorant of the V-speeds, that thou mayest not approach high and fast, for the ditch at the end of the runway lieth in wait for whomsoever it may devour. Neither shalt thou neglect to check frequently thy airspeed on final approach, lest the earth rise up and smite thee.



    Funny, but some serious truths there.

    Transport Canada publishes a safety letter every so often, and has a summary of accidents as well as some in-depth examination of some that we can all learn from. They like to say the we should "Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself." A person who is afraid to read accident reports because it might scare him/her away from aviation maybe shouldn't be flying until they understand the major causes of accidents, at least, and understand that the vast majority of them are a result of either ignorance (lack of training or study) or arrogance (big ego). With homebuilts, the causes of accidents are many and varied, from systems failures (poor design or construction, or inferior materials) to loss of control (most homebuilts don't fly like the airplanes their owners learned to fly in and can be much less forgiving).

    There are the Five Hazardous Attitudes: Aviation Human Factors: Hazardous Attitudes

    Most of us don't like to be told we have one or more of these attitudes. I heard students dispute the results of testing, saying "I'm not like that!" Only to have the others say, "Yes you are!" We often don't recognize the factors within ourselves that can lead to trouble, and we should be willing to learn and correct before the laws of physics force it on us.


    News reports of accidents are nearly useless as far as learning goes. We might make some educated guesses as to what caused the accident, but until the report comes out we really don't know. The journalists know about as much about aviation as they do about brain surgery and will get everything wrong and misleading. For instance, they will often say that "a flight plan was not filed" as if the airplane was bound to crash without a flight plan. Or that "there was no fire" after an airplane landed on a highway due to fuel exhaustion. Duh. They believe what Hollywood feeds them: a crash automatically means a spectacular explosion. Or they misunderstand a pilot's take on it when he says that the airplane stalled and crashed; to them, that means that the engine quit, and an engine failure always means a death plunge.

  11. #24
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Upper midwest in a house
    Posts
    3,182
    Likes (Given)
    324
    Likes (Received)
    1010

    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    Posting links to the F16 crash is NOT a safety discussion.
    But it is NEWS, which the title of the thread is "Crashes in the News"

    "News" is reports of unusual occurrences; things that don't happen every day. F-16 crashes don't happen every day so when it does happen, it's news. While GA plane crashes happen every day, there's not many of them so they are unusual, or news. Car crashes are as common as a rainshower in Florida. They happen every day so it is only news for the few personally connected to the event.

    As far as discussion to improve safety, I'd advise to proceed with caution. On the internet everybody is an aviation safety expert, no piloting experience required. For those that are truly interested in learning how to be safe, it can can be confusing trying to separate "pearls of wisdom" information from BS.
    The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible. - Mark Twain

    If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$hi+. ― W.C. Fields

  12. #25
    Registered User Little Scrapper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    2,488
    Likes (Given)
    1506
    Likes (Received)
    1177

    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
    But it is NEWS, which the title of the thread is "Crashes in the News"

    "News" is reports of unusual occurrences; things that don't happen every day. F-16 crashes don't happen every day so when it does happen, it's news. While GA plane crashes happen every day, there's not many of them so they are unusual, or news. Car crashes are as common as a rainshower in Florida. They happen every day so it is only news for the few personally connected to the event.

    As far as discussion to improve safety, I'd advise to proceed with caution. On the internet everybody is an aviation safety expert, no piloting experience required. For those that are truly interested in learning how to be safe, it can can be confusing trying to separate "pearls of wisdom" information from BS.
    I'm aware of what "news" is, thanks for reaffirming. My response was to the posts on safety. After all, in aviation if you're not trying to learn from the accidents the thread is nothing more than the National Enquirer. It's a forum so people are free to write what they want, I just find this morbid.

    And your last paragraph. 100% agree.

    Over the years I've noticed there's 2 types of pilots. Nobody in my circles talks about airplane crashes for the sake of entertainment. But hey, there's 2 types of pilots, pilot deaths are hallowed ground for me that's why I think this is weird. Not saying I'm right, we all have different beliefs I guess.

  13. #26
    Registered User Lucrum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Canton, GA
    Posts
    764
    Likes (Given)
    184
    Likes (Received)
    120

    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Scrapper View Post
    ...Over the years I've noticed there's 2 types of pilots. Nobody in my circles talks about airplane crashes for the sake of entertainment. But hey, there's 2 types of pilots, pilot deaths are hallowed ground for me that's why I think this is weird. Not saying I'm right, we all have different beliefs I guess.
    Hallowed ground I can abide, Not learning from others errors I cannot
    ...If you forget this, you will be subjected to a four phase aeronautical process that dates back to the early 1900s. Stall, spin, crash and burn. Phase 4 requires some amount of fuel on board at time of impact.

  14. #27
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Upper midwest in a house
    Posts
    3,182
    Likes (Given)
    324
    Likes (Received)
    1010

    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucrum View Post
    Aren't most NTSB accident reports factual?
    Worded another way, the NTSB only reports facts that are discovered during the course of an accident investigation. So when the dreaded "No flight plan was filed" is reported, that is a verifiable fact. Nevermind that it did or did not contribute to the accident, that's one of the boxes that must be checked off on the form so that's why it's there. At the end of the investigation, an investigator or team of investigators often offer a probably cause, which may or may not be factually accurate. The probable cause statement usually contains personal bias and prejudice because of the human element. We all have our preconceived ideas. In my very limited accident investigation training, in one exercise they present an accident scenario and every team is given the same facts. They then work backwards to try and find a "probably cause" yet none of the teams came up with similar probable causes because inevitably, personal bias and prejudices lead us down different paths.

    When a so called "accident investigator" reports with little factual information and lots of personal bias, a light bulb should go off in your head. At that point there's not much reporting going on, which is fine as long as it's stated as such. Often personal bias and prejudice are reported as fact because the reporter presents as some kind of all knowing expert. Remember, on the internet, anyone can be an expert.
    The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible. - Mark Twain

    If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$hi+. ― W.C. Fields

  15. Likes Little Scrapper liked this post
  16. #28
    Registered User Little Scrapper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    2,488
    Likes (Given)
    1506
    Likes (Received)
    1177

    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucrum View Post
    Hallowed ground I can abide, Not learning from others errors I cannot
    I guess I'm not sure what you're saying. Once you said you haven't read the NTSB reports on GA aircraft it became a challenge to have a discussion.

  17. #29
    Registered User Lucrum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Canton, GA
    Posts
    764
    Likes (Given)
    184
    Likes (Received)
    120

    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Scrapper View Post
    I guess I'm not sure what you're saying. Once you said you haven't read the NTSB reports on GA aircraft it became a challenge to have a discussion.
    Actually I said I don't read them daily Not that I never read one
    ...If you forget this, you will be subjected to a four phase aeronautical process that dates back to the early 1900s. Stall, spin, crash and burn. Phase 4 requires some amount of fuel on board at time of impact.

  18. #30
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Upper midwest in a house
    Posts
    3,182
    Likes (Given)
    324
    Likes (Received)
    1010

    Re: Crashes in the News - Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Scrapper View Post
    Over the years I've noticed there's 2 types of pilots. Nobody in my circles talks about airplane crashes for the sake of entertainment. But hey, there's 2 types of pilots, pilot deaths are hallowed ground for me that's why I think this is weird. Not saying I'm right, we all have different beliefs I guess.
    Not sure how entertainment is defined but isn't rejecting all thought and/or discussion a form of denial?

    I have always been interested in trying to find out why a plane became a pile of wreckage. The more I learn, the more I realize that the pilot being a moron is rarely the true cause.
    The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible. - Mark Twain

    If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$hi+. ― W.C. Fields

Similar Threads

  1. Texting Pilot Crashes
    By N8053H in forum Hangar Flying
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: April 10th, 2013, 12:41 PM
  2. Crashes in Alabama
    By randyscottsboro in forum Hangar Flying
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: September 18th, 2012, 09:20 AM
  3. Reno crashes (through 2007)
    By FranklinRatliff in forum Hangar Flying
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: September 22nd, 2011, 08:52 AM
  4. Vintage B-17 crashes......
    By Nickathome in forum Hangar Flying
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: June 21st, 2011, 07:21 PM
  5. Plane crashes into RV Park....
    By Midniteoyl in forum Hangar Flying
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: January 18th, 2011, 04:46 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •