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Thread: Any Ragwing Projects here?

  1. #31
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    Re: Any Ragwing Projects here?

    Hi Jake,
    Thanks for the heads up, I am also going down to the printers for larger drawings. Jake, you say your "instructors", are you enrolled in a building course?

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    Re: Any Ragwing Projects here?

    No, Flight, I've been on the '30 year plan', start and don't finish, mainly for job moves, so now budgeting for this and will get it done. Too much fun not to get it done. The owner is also a Commercial Freight plane pilot, two weeks a month, and has the instructors who are also A&P certified. Lots of solid help available. When its time to mount the engine I will probably rent a corner of the hangar.
    Jake Levi

    We are all in this together.

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    Re: Any Ragwing Projects here?

    Jake, do you think I could tap some of these fellows knowledge? Not looking for any free rides, willing to pay for their guidance.
    Cheers

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    Re: Any Ragwing Projects here?

    I will ask if any have email, do you have any specifics yet?

    What is your project? If its the RW 20 I can add your questions to mine.
    Jake Levi

    We are all in this together.

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    Re: Any Ragwing Projects here?

    Hi Jake,
    I also plan to build the RW 20 and like yourself I want to go trike landing gear. Still trying to visualize the plans in my head, One question that comes to mind is the wood to use, I read someplace that some people are using Douglass fur in place of spruce.

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    Re: Any Ragwing Projects here?

    Doug Fir can be used in aircraft. It is heavier and stronger, so it could be paired down to get the weight down on a design but every part on the plans would have to be changed so most dont change dimensions. The only caveat is the Doug Fir needs to be graded to aircraft quality, so as a builder you will have to be able to judge that quality. Some people are very lucky to have that kind of wood around the corner, but like where I live it is just as rare as the Sitka so shipping in barely cheaper wood does not make the most sense.

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    Re: Any Ragwing Projects here?

    Thanks TFF

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    Re: Any Ragwing Projects here?

    Jake, what part of the airplane are you thinking of starting from? Thanks

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    Re: Any Ragwing Projects here?

    I am about to download the plans for the RW19 this weekend and thought I would comment on a few things that have been posted so far....

    I understand that 2-strokes are not for everyone,but the 2 videos on YouTube that I have been able to find showing the plane flying,you can clearly see a performance difference between the two aircraft.
    The 2-stroke plane,flown by Roger,shows very good STOL capabilities....even though I'm wondering how much headwind he had while filming..I can distinctly hear the wind in the video and see the grass move.
    The 4-stroke plane doesn't show much STOL ability at all in the video...I would assume this is either due to pilot ability or from the greatly increased weight.
    Weight seems to be the determining factor as to the planes STOL characteristics....so why would you add weight by using a 4-stroke and defeat the designed purpose of the plane?

    How bad are the videos?....are they worth spending the money on?

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    Re: Any Ragwing Projects here?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadProfessor8138 View Post
    I am about to download the plans for the RW19 this weekend and thought I would comment on a few things that have been posted so far....

    I understand that 2-strokes are not for everyone,but the 2 videos on YouTube that I have been able to find showing the plane flying,you can clearly see a performance difference between the two aircraft.
    The 2-stroke plane,flown by Roger,shows very good STOL capabilities....even though I'm wondering how much headwind he had while filming..I can distinctly hear the wind in the video and see the grass move.
    The 4-stroke plane doesn't show much STOL ability at all in the video...I would assume this is either due to pilot ability or from the greatly increased weight.
    Weight seems to be the determining factor as to the planes STOL characteristics....so why would you add weight by using a 4-stroke and defeat the designed purpose of the plane?

    How bad are the videos?....are they worth spending the money on?
    Weight can be problematic but you have to investigate every airplane and engine choice for
    your particular project to see if it actually is a problem. There are a lot more factors to consider
    besides weight when deciding on a two stroke engine.....and most of them are undesirable in
    an airplane. They can work, but noise,reliability,weight and cost of a reduction gear,low torque,
    and vibration must be dealt with.

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    Re: Any Ragwing Projects here?

    Sorry,I was at work and had to post my previous message quickly...
    The weight is the main issue that I was eluding to......the plane was designed to have STOL capabilities and it accomplishes that by keeping the weight down by using a 2-stroke for power.
    Using a 4-stroke will greatly increase the weight and therefore deminish the STOL capability...the very thing the plane was designed for.
    I realize that not everyone is capable of maintaining a 2-stroke,due to their mechanical ability,and are more comfortable with a 4-stroke where basically you check the oil and fire the thing up.The only time they would ever do maintenance is when something in/on the engine gets really loud or the engine gets really quiet.
    I have flown MANY hours with Rotax 377,503 and 582 engines and have only ever had one issue....I had a bearing failure about 30 minutes after I purchased a used Rotax 377 from someone that had been running a straight shaft on a Quicksilver Mx....even then,the engine didn't lose power or quit,I just heard the bearing rattling until I was able to land 20 minutes later.
    I guess my point/question is this....
    The RW19 was designed to do one thing in particular using a specific source of power......why would someone decide to deviate from the design plans so drastically and take away from the one specific thing that it was designed to do very well?
    Is it the fact that they find the appearance of the plane pleasing and don't care about the original performance specs..they just like the looks.
    Or is because they like the wood construction and can't find another design that uses wood construction?
    I'm just curious why a person wouldn't just find another design to build that is already set up for a 4-stroke.....there are several out there.

    I'm not nit picking anyone's decision....I am just honestly curious as to everyone's view point.

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    Re: Any Ragwing Projects here?

    ekimneirbo........I'm curious if you have many hours flying with 2-strokes?
    I have never really had any issues with my engines because I do maintenance.
    The end of your post listed a few issues with the 2-stroke engines that I would like to comment on.
    1.Noise.....Rotax has a intake silencer and it will drastically drop the decibel levels...you have to hear it/not hear it to believe it.
    2.Reliabilty....I've only ever had one issue and that damage was done to the engine long before I ever purchased it...2-strokes are actually very simple to maintain....the 503 is damn near bullet proof,even for idiots that abuse equipment.
    3.Reduction gear cost and weight...Rotax has many gear boxes that are light weight and are very affordable...the c-box is my favorite because of the rubber dampner in it...very smooth if you keep the idle above 1900 rpm...very smooth.
    4.Low torque.....my QuickSilver MX with a 377 using a high thrust kit,different pulleys and larger prop,is a stump puller with just 35hp. I can out climb most guys running 503's on there MX's as long as they don't have a high thrust kit too.
    It's all about the gearing and prop size for the thrust.
    5.Vibration.....has never really been an issue...at idle 2-strokes do tend to rattle and dance a little but if you are using a gearbox you shouldn't drop your idle below 1900-2000 rpm anyways because it causes the gears in the box to backlash and will destroy them in a short time.Keep your idle where it is suppose to be and it will be very smooth.
    Anything above idle is smooth also.

    I am just wondering if you've had a bad experience with a 2-stroke personally or maybe you have one giving you fits now that you might need some help with.

  13. #43
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    Re: Any Ragwing Projects here?

    Actually I had a fair amount of experience with 2 stroke engines many years ago when I used to race motocross and enduro races.
    Also had several Kawasaki pocket rockets.....great wheelie machines. Very lucky to still be alive after those experiences.
    The engines are , as you say, really simple to work on. Comparing longivity and reliability, the four stroke has a much better reputation.
    You mention the engine being a stump puller, but actually its the gearing rather than the engine thats producing the low rpm power.
    While there is no "written in stone" acceptable idle speed, 2000 rpms is quite high for most engines, so the flying rpm range must be
    substantially higher. I would expect the engine has to rev pretty high during flight if you have compensated with a reduction drive
    geared for takeoff.
    A four stroke will usually produce greater low end torque naturally while allowing better cruise power to be available once aloft. I realize
    you are interested in STOL capability as your prime objective, but you should also consider that once you are aloft you may wish to fly
    to a destination that requires decent airspeed. While I like low an slow flight, a versatile airplane should have reasonable ability to cruise
    also. I read the recent KitPlane article about the Just SuperStol XL Personally I found it disappointing. It has 180 hp and weighs 870 lbs.
    It has floating slats. While it will jump off the ground very quickly, its MAXIMUM cruise speed is only 105 mph. Since the slats retract,
    I would have expected a somewhat higher cruise speed. Take a look at a Carbon Cub which has a 900 lb empty weight, no slats, 180 hp
    and normal cruise is 110 mph. While both of these airplanes are kits and cost far more than what you are spending, the point is that
    they do provide additional ability to get to a destination (Oshkosh / SunNfun) in a reasonable time.

    There are plans built STOL airplanes that can rival and maybe exceed some of this performance if you shop and compare carefully. My personal
    opinion is that you are limiting yourself by selecting something that doesn't allow you to expand your horizons. It may very well suit the specific
    needs you have, and I am wrong in my opinion. There are plenty of people who seem to thrive on smaller airplanes and two stroke engines.
    Its just not whats best for me, but they may be perfect for your needs. Whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck with your project.
    Last edited by ekimneirbo; December 12th, 2015 at 11:45 AM.

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    Re: Any Ragwing Projects here?

    I am starting with the tail, then wings and then fuselage. Then gear, it will be a trike, visibility is very important to me on the ground as well as the air.

    For a little comparison on Stol planes check out the Zenith ch 701. I do like the slats and flaperons it has. I am not a metal plane fan, but this has some good design in it too. The designer of it has a good book titled "Flying On Your Own Wings." On the 2 stroke or 4 discussion the jury is still out for me. The prototype was flown with a 2si 70HP. I would like a 75-80 hp, the 2 si is no longer built as far as I can find out, the company Cuyana isn't making aviation engines anymore, I haven't looked into what they do have. I am leaving the engine to last, after I weigh the plane.
    Jake Levi

    We are all in this together.

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    Re: Any Ragwing Projects here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Levi View Post
    I am starting with the tail, then wings and then fuselage. Then gear, it will be a trike, visibility is very important to me on the ground as well as the air.

    For a little comparison on Stol planes check out the Zenith ch 701. I do like the slats and flaperons it has. I am not a metal plane fan, but this has some good design in it too. The designer of it has a good book titled "Flying On Your Own Wings." On the 2 stroke or 4 discussion the jury is still out for me. The prototype was flown with a 2si 70HP. I would like a 75-80 hp, the 2 si is no longer built as far as I can find out, the company Cuyana isn't making aviation engines anymore, I haven't looked into what they do have. I am leaving the engine to last, after I weigh the plane.
    I spent quite a bit of time and money gathering data on several STOL airplanes . If I can help you with any comparison questions, let me know.

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