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Thread: 3rd Class Medical Reform still alive...

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    Re: 3rd Class Medical Reform still alive...

    I believe SP will always be alive and well as will EAB single seat. You will have people like me that any other type of flying is above their pay grade. I will always fly what I do for this reason. I can only afford what I can afford.

    I am sure others are in my same shoe's.

    Tony

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    Re: 3rd Class Medical Reform still alive...

    If SPs cannot afford to get to PPL, they can't afford the current price of the LSA either.

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    Re: 3rd Class Medical Reform still alive...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviator168 View Post
    If SPs cannot afford to get to PPL, they can't afford the current price of the LSA either.

    My condition inspections cost around 300 bucks. The airpark owner spends 5x that and sometimes more on his GA airplane. Not to mention the airplane its self. Not to many flying GA airplanes can be purchased for 5 grand.

    Its not about the Certificate but the airplanes you are right.

    EAB will always be my bird of choice. Anything else is a fools dream for me. I am no fool. Its the man/woman who tries and fly outside his or her pay grade who do not fly long. I will not be flying long but it will not be because of flying outside my pay grade.

    Tony

    P.S. I should say its not about the 3rd class medical and if they drop it or not. In my case and I am sure others as well, I will always fly SP EAB. Nothing will change if they do away with this. But I would still like to see it go like everyone else for the sake of aviation.

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    Re: 3rd Class Medical Reform still alive...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviator168 View Post
    If SPs cannot afford to get to PPL, they can't afford the current price of the LSA either.
    But they can save money on the training and then save money on the cheaper rental.

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    Re: 3rd Class Medical Reform still alive...

    Quote Originally Posted by bmcj View Post
    But they can save money on the training and then save money on the cheaper rental.
    Rentals can't support an industry as the usage of the planes are too efficient.

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    Re: 3rd Class Medical Reform still alive...

    Quote Originally Posted by dcstrng View Post
    See all at: Medical reform moves forward - AOPA

    The FAA has sent a proposal to reform the third class medical certification process to the Department of Transportation for review, FAA Administrator Michael Huerta announced July 31 at EAA AirVenture in Oshkosh, Wisconsin.

    Huerta would not discuss details of the proposed rule, but said the FAA has heard the general aviation community “loud and clear” on the need for reform. The proposed rulemaking must be vetted by both the Department of Transportation and the White House Office of Management and Budget before it can be opened for public comment sometime in the fall.

    “The easy thing would be for us to say ‘no,’ but the objective is to get to ‘yes,’” Huerta said...
    Translation: "See, we're still working on it! (and we will be as long as Congress is still threatening to make us change things)"

    I want to see "any aircraft under 6000lb, 6 seats or less, not used for hire" qualifying. The best I think we could get is "aircraft with no more than 4 seats, under 200kt, under 10kft, under 200hp, day VFR only, previously denied medical still disqualifies". What I think we'll actually get is "no change warranted at this time".

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    Re: 3rd Class Medical Reform still alive...

    Quote Originally Posted by gtae07 View Post
    Translation: "See, we're still working on it! (and we will be as long as Congress is still threatening to make us change things)"

    I want to see "any aircraft under 6000lb, 6 seats or less, not used for hire" qualifying. The best I think we could get is "aircraft with no more than 4 seats, under 200kt, under 10kft, under 200hp, day VFR only, previously denied medical still disqualifies". What I think we'll actually get is "no change warranted at this time".
    Hope you are wrong. If nothing happens, what will happen is aviation as we know it today will be gone. Its in the numbers and the statistics. Because it is in the numbers in black and white, I believe something will change. Its just what?

    Tony

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    Registered User dcstrng's Avatar
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    Re: 3rd Class Medical Reform still alive...

    Quote Originally Posted by gtae07 View Post
    What I think we'll actually get is "no change warranted at this time".
    I’m fearful you may be correct, but hope you are wrong…

    On the other hand; reading together the recent policy proposal to clean snowmobiles and SUVs (whatever) out of hangers, and the consideration of some sort of 3rd Class medical reform (etc.), perhaps the FAA executives are beginning to become apprehensive that non-commercial GA is in trouble, or could be if not given some new direction… Given the apparent antipathy over many decades – it would be a noticeable change, but even government bureaucrats (I am one – not FAA) can see the much reduced numbers and that many aviation industries below the Boeing/Airbus level are struggling…

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    Moderator Topaz's Avatar
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    Re: 3rd Class Medical Reform still alive...

    Quote Originally Posted by dcstrng View Post
    I’m fearful you may be correct, but hope you are wrong…

    On the other hand; reading together the recent policy proposal to clean snowmobiles and SUVs (whatever) out of hangers, and the consideration of some sort of 3rd Class medical reform (etc.), perhaps the FAA executives are beginning to become apprehensive that non-commercial GA is in trouble, or could be if not given some new direction… Given the apparent antipathy over many decades – it would be a noticeable change, but even government bureaucrats (I am one – not FAA) can see the much reduced numbers and that many aviation industries below the Boeing/Airbus level are struggling…
    On the surface, at least, that's exactly what's happening. The FAA has explicitly used the reason that light-GA is declining as a declared motive for "considering" this rule change. The problem is, they're bureaucrats, and a bureaucrat would rather be stripped naked, painted purple, and forced to dance the samba in front of his grandmother than do something where someone might come back later and say, "You compromised safety in the name of a special interest!!!" Which, if some increase in accident numbers somehow magically occurred, despite actual evidence to the contrary (Sport Pilot and PPL-Glider), is exactly how this would be portrayed in the media and by opportunistic Congressmen looking for a sound-bite. So the rulemakers at the FAA are protecting their own necks at the expense of the hundreds of thousands of GA pilots out there, and in direct violation of their mandate to "promote aviation". Left to their own devices, this initiative would be "studied" to death and ultimately fade away without action, just like every other time it's been suggested. The only reason reducing the medical requirement might be in the FAA's underlying interest is that, if light GA were to go away more or less completely, their area of influence declines. Bureaucrats hate that, and see it as a direct threat to their existence and budgets. But light GA has grown so small already, I have my doubts if this is really much of a motivation for them.

    What's changed, this time, is that we do have some pro-GA senators and representatives in Congress who are holding the FAA's feet to the fire on this subject. The alphabet organizations (EAA, AOPA, etc.) are feeding them information and they're asking tough questions; questions for which the FAA really doesn't have an answer. Like, "Is there any measurable data that shows that the Third-Class Medical requirement has actually increased safety?" Of course there isn't. There never was. It was one of those things that was taken as a "given" in the FAA and pilot community. Except there's no data to support the notion that a medical exam improves safety in GA pilots, and actual, real, data that supports the opposite conclusion: That a Third-Class medical makes no real difference whatsoever.
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    Re: 3rd Class Medical Reform still alive...

    Quote Originally Posted by N8053H View Post
    If nothing happens, what will happen is aviation as we know it today will be gone.
    I'm not sure it's as dire as that. I hope the Class 3 medical goes away, too, but the inconvenience (2 hours?) and cost ($100 ?) to comply every 2 years is not going to stop me from flying--just as it hasn't stopped others over the years. We will lose some (esp older) pilots, but that's just the same as it's always been (the FAA isn't talking about making the requirements more stringent, after all).
    The Class 3 medical isn't a major factor in the troubles GA is having, it's a very minor contributing factor. I see it as an inconvenience and I hope common-sense changes are made.

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    Registered User gtae07's Avatar
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    Re: 3rd Class Medical Reform still alive...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilant1 View Post
    I'm not sure it's as dire as that. I hope the Class 3 medical goes away, too, but the inconvenience (2 hours?) and cost ($100 ?) to comply every 2 years is not going to stop me from flying--just as it hasn't stopped others over the years. We will lose some (esp older) pilots, but that's just the same as it's always been (the FAA isn't talking about making the requirements more stringent, after all).
    The Class 3 medical isn't a major factor in the troubles GA is having, it's a very minor contributing factor. I see it as an inconvenience and I hope common-sense changes are made.
    The problem with the Class 3 isn't time or money; it's that minor medical conditions which don't affect your ability to fly safely can nevertheless permanently ground you.
    If you are denied a higher class medical, you're also denied a Class 3, even if that condition doesn't disqualify you for the Class 3 on its own.
    If you're able to get a special-issuance medical, that's a ton of paperwork and expense and effort over and over again, and each time subject to the whim of some desk driver in Oklahoma City whose actual aviation knowledge is limited to riding as a passenger on an airliner.
    Even if the grounding condition clears up and you don't need special issuance, the denial lives forever in your record and makes you more likely to once again be permanently grounded.

    This hits home to me because I've seen friends and my father both grounded (fortunately, not permanently... yet) by stupid things that had no effect on their ability to operate a light personal airplane. In my dad's case, he was denied a Class 1, and in the same week was ruled perfectly healthy to charge into burning buildings (as he was volunteering on the fire department at the time). The denial ultimately turned out to be due to the doctor misreading a test result, but it took months to resolve and still follows him around every six months at his renewals.

    Also, I got the "turn your head and cough" treatment at my last Class 3. What in the %&^# does that have to do with flying a light airplane?

    The FAA is stonewalling for no other reason than because it means giving up power. The sick $&^%#&$ in OKC who enjoy wrecking careers and trashing dreams with the stroke of a pen just can't give it up.

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    Re: 3rd Class Medical Reform still alive...

    Quote Originally Posted by gtae07 View Post
    The problem with the Class 3 isn't time or money; it's that minor medical conditions which don't affect your ability to fly safely can nevertheless permanently ground you.
    If you are denied a higher class medical, you're also denied a Class 3, even if that condition doesn't disqualify you for the Class 3 on its own.
    If you're able to get a special-issuance medical, that's a ton of paperwork and expense and effort over and over again, and each time subject to the whim of some desk driver in Oklahoma City whose actual aviation knowledge is limited to riding as a passenger on an airliner.
    Even if the grounding condition clears up and you don't need special issuance, the denial lives forever in your record and makes you more likely to once again be permanently grounded....
    The insanity of it all is that, without a medical, I can fly a two-seat, 165mph cruise, retractable gear Stemme S-10, but I can't fly a Cub. I can't fly a Hummelbird or even a little DoubleEagle. WTH?

    The Third Class was always overkill. If it were just a simple "check up" to make sure you're basically healthy, and not a witch-hunt to make sure you're some kind of Superman, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But we just got rid of rectal exams from the Third Class examination in the late 1990's. And pelvic exams for women. We still have the nonsensical hernia examination in it, and the list of disqualifying conditions that have no bearing on one's ability to safely fly a light plane would be laughable if it weren't for the fact that people are being genuinely impacted by the bureaucratic nonsense.

    /Rant
    Last edited by Topaz; August 5th, 2014 at 02:31 PM.
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    Re: 3rd Class Medical Reform still alive...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilant1 View Post
    I'm not sure it's as dire as that. I hope the Class 3 medical goes away, too, but the inconvenience (2 hours?) and cost ($100 ?) to comply every 2 years is not going to stop me from flying.
    But it does stop people who have concerns from even trying even though they may be able to pass the exam for 20 more years.


    Quote Originally Posted by gtae07 View Post
    The problem with the Class 3 isn't time or money; it's that minor medical conditions which don't affect your ability to fly safely can nevertheless permanently ground you.
    If you are denied a higher class medical, you're also denied a Class 3, even if that condition doesn't disqualify you for the Class 3 on its own.
    If you're able to get a special-issuance medical, that's a ton of paperwork and expense and effort over and over again, and each time subject to the whim of some desk driver in Oklahoma City whose actual aviation knowledge is limited to riding as a passenger on an airliner.
    Even if the grounding condition clears up and you don't need special issuance, the denial lives forever in your record and makes you more likely to once again be permanently grounded.
    How about the person who gets on the list solely because their concern about passing elevates their blood pressure or heart rate above limits?


    Quote Originally Posted by Topaz View Post
    The Third Class was always overkill. If it were just a simple "check up" to make sure you're basically healthy, and not a witch-hunt to make sure you're some kind of Superman, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But we just got rid of rectal exams from the Third Class examination in the late 1990's. And pelvic exams for women. We still have the nonsensical hernia examination in it, and the list of disqualifying conditions that have no bearing on one's ability to safely fly a light plane would be laughable if it weren't for the fact that people are being genuinely impacted by the bureaucratic nonsense.
    Which reminds me of the medical/physical exam scenes from "The Right Stuff" movie.

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    Re: 3rd Class Medical Reform still alive...

    Quote Originally Posted by bmcj View Post
    Which reminds me of the medical/physical exam scenes from "The Right Stuff" movie.
    Exactly. It means "we have no real clue, so we're going to test for everything and deny the cert if we even think that there might could possibly be a problem caused by it somewhere at any time in the next fifty years".

    It's the same logic that compels people to ask "how is that legal?", "I can't believe you can do that without a license/permission", "they ought to require a license to do that", etc. (example: shock that one can operate a recreational vehicle under 26k lb, or pull a trailer under 10klb, with a regular driver's license as opposed to a special one), even though "that" has been done for a long time with no problems. Doesn't matter how much it's done without a problem; they imagine that it could possibly happen somehow, and that equates in their mind to "it will happen often".

    Fact is, plenty of people have flown and continue to fly without medical certificates. And just like with cars, the overwhelming causes of accidents are pilot/driver error. Even when physiological factors come into play, the vast majority are non-medical and/or self imposed (fatigue, intoxicating substances). Accidents caused by detectable, known medical conditions just don't happen. Anyone can have a heart attack or anyeurism and drop dead behind the wheel or in the cockpit, even a highly fit athlete. The cursory vitals, vision, hearing, and genital cupping (is that really still officially part of the exam? I didn't think it was since I'd never had it done for an aviation medical before, but the AME was a lonely old man and I figured if it made him happy for a few minutes, he could have at it...). It's a solution looking for a problem.

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    Re: 3rd Class Medical Reform still alive...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilant1 View Post
    I'm not sure it's as dire as that. I hope the Class 3 medical goes away, too, but the inconvenience (2 hours?) and cost ($100 ?) to comply every 2 years is not going to stop me from flying--just as it hasn't stopped others over the years. We will lose some (esp older) pilots, but that's just the same as it's always been (the FAA isn't talking about making the requirements more stringent, after all).
    The Class 3 medical isn't a major factor in the troubles GA is having, it's a very minor contributing factor. I see it as an inconvenience and I hope common-sense changes are made.
    I have seen enough airports with hangars full of airplanes that never move. Sure I am talking back country small grass strip hangars. I have also seen in my short aviation time more small airfields plowed under then I wish to see. This is just in my area.

    Its all in the numbers. Look at the statistics. But you are right, you and I have an airplane, we fly, how can this be a problem.

    Tony

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