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Thread: Deleting posts

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    Registered User bmcj's Avatar
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    Deleting posts

    NOTE: I wanted to post this under Rules of Conduct, but that section is closed to all but a few designated members...

    Please people, if you find some reason to take issue with this forum or it's members, do not delete all of your posts as member STOL did recently. It is very disruptive to the flow of the conversation where subsequent posts may build off previous comments. It is especially confusing to new members who come in, find posts of interest, and try to read them from the initial post onward.

    The only possible reasons I can think of to delete a post is if you find that something might be considered inflamatory or outright false or one that accidentally divulges corporate or personal secrets, and even then, it is often better to correct the record with a new post, leaving the old post intact (with minimal editing if needed). To completely wipe all of your posts as some have done is inconsiderate and disrespectful to the rest of the community.

    Bruce

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    Registered User stol's Avatar
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    Re: Deleting posts

    Quote Originally Posted by bmcj View Post
    NOTE: I wanted to post this under Rules of Conduct, but that section is closed to all but a few designated members...

    Please people, if you find some reason to take issue with this forum or it's members, do not delete all of your posts as member STOL did recently. It is very disruptive to the flow of the conversation where subsequent posts may build off previous comments. It is especially confusing to new members who come in, find posts of interest, and try to read them from the initial post onward.

    The only possible reasons I can think of to delete a post is if you find that something might be considered inflamatory or outright false or one that accidentally divulges corporate or personal secrets, and even then, it is often better to correct the record with a new post, leaving the old post intact (with minimal editing if needed). To completely wipe all of your posts as some have done is inconsiderate and disrespectful to the rest of the community.

    Bruce
    Just to set the record straight.....

    It became VERY apparent to me that anything that is not engineered is unsafe and since all the R&D I do on my plane is based on MY past experiences and since none of it has ever been engineered, I felt it prudent to remove every post I made to make sure any human being reading what I did succcessfully will not cause them any harm if they try to duplicate the same concept... Sorry to disrupt the engineering community... I am just a poor ol, dumb backyard mechanic and these experimental planes can and will kill people...


    Good luck to all as this will be my last post in this forum....

    Tailwinds...

    Ben Haas.....

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    Moderator autoreply's Avatar
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    Re: Deleting posts

    I couldn't have said it any better Bruce and I couldn't agree more.


    Some frustration is understandable on a forum. Members have very different backgrounds, ideas, opinions and expertise. On top of that there's the intrinsic handicap of communicating via a keyboard instead of a far more effective face-to-face talk. But I hope that won't disappoint people so much that they give up and delete all their posts. As Bruce said, that's really just a waste because good information and expertise is lost. I too think that's rather disrespectful if people have taken the time to read your posts and reply to them, no matter how much you disagree with them.


    As for editing, I don't edit my own posts either, unless I have something to add. If I'm wrong, changed my mind or think differently, just do it in the next post. That keeps it clear for everybody who reads it when the thread is still "hot", or in the far future.



    I've only now seen your post STOL.
    Quote Originally Posted by stol View Post
    It became VERY apparent to me that anything that is not engineered is unsafe and since all the R&D I do on my plane is based on MY past experiences
    Proper engineering doesn't mean plain math. It basically means knowing what you're doing. You don't need a PhD to design an aircraft engine, but you already know that.
    I am just a poor ol, dumb backyard mechanic and these experimental planes can and will kill people.
    Which makes it even more sad that you have decided to leave. Your repetitive comments about the risks involved were some of the more down-to-earth comments about the realities of "adapted" aircraft engines.
    Kennis vermenigvuldig je door het te delen.
    (You multiply knowledge by dividing it)

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    Moderator Topaz's Avatar
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    Re: Deleting posts

    Attacking engineering in general (which you did do, STOL) and then packing up and going home when you get some pushback isn't making a point or even being constructive. You lashed out at engineers pretty harshly in that other thread, then got upset that people had differing opinions.

    Like Autoreply, I'm sad that you've decided to leave. You've contributed well to this forum, that outburst excepted.
    "If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them." - Henry David Thoreau

    Design Project: Conceptual Design of an "Inexpensive" Single-Seat Motorglider
    Discussion Thread for the Project: Discussion: Conceptual Design of an "Inexpensive" Single-Seat Motorglider

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    Registered User Toobuilder's Avatar
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    Re: Deleting posts


    Its one thing to stumble through projects without formal engineering training because that’s all you have to work with (like me), but it is quite another to display actual contempt for formal engineering and engineers themselves. This is a forum of give and take – of knowledge transfer. Often, this includes scrutiny, passion and even outright disagreement. If someone can’t stand that level of interaction, then good riddance.


    At any rate, pulling ones prior posts and thereby sabotaging the forum for future use is a pretty effective method for erasing one’s credibility. There are forums that only allow editing posts for a limited time before they are “set in stone” – I’d suggest we make that happen here.

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    Re: Deleting posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Toobuilder View Post

    At any rate, pulling ones prior posts and thereby sabotaging the forum for future use is a pretty effective method for erasing one’s credibility. There are forums that only allow editing posts for a limited time before they are “set in stone” – I’d suggest we make that happen here.
    I don't imagine things would work that way as we'd all need to keep our mouths shut for fear that things would be "set in stone". STOL had a lot of great posts in my opinion and he was proving his ideas by flying behind them which is good enough for me and I actually am an engineer. I'm kinda bummed I missed the original thread that caused this as I really can't imagine STOL started anything. Are there any of his statements quoted so we can really see the contaxt?

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    Registered User Toobuilder's Avatar
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    Re: Deleting posts

    If you post on any forum, you should do so with the knowledge that you are creating a permanent record. Just like in a real time conversation, you don't get to "unsay" something. There are plenty of forums that "lock down" after a day or so - I doubt that people would notice if that happened here.

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    Re: Deleting posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Toobuilder View Post
    If you post on any forum, you should do so with the knowledge that you are creating a permanent record. .
    Says you. Others might disagree that you give up the right to your own words just because you posted them someplace where you no longer feel comfortable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toobuilder View Post
    Just like in a real time conversation, you don't get to "unsay" something. There are plenty of forums that "lock down" after a day or so - I doubt that people would notice if that happened here.
    You're probably right about this but if it discourages anyone from posting you wouldn't know it. It's real easy for threads to diverge all over the place here and for people to complain that conversations will become disjointed in the future there is an easy fix. Reply with quotes.

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    Registered User Toobuilder's Avatar
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    Re: Deleting posts

    Quote Originally Posted by roverjohn View Post
    Says you. Others might disagree that you give up the right to your own words just because you posted them someplace where you no longer feel comfortable...
    "Proves" me... Go ahead and change "your" words in the blue box above...

    Anyway, I've said my piece here. I thought our departed friend had something to offer at first, but his actions and attitude have proven otherwise.

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    Registered User GrizzlyV6's Avatar
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    Re: Deleting posts

    Ben built an airplane that works very well with the auto conversion. He shared his story with all for education and success. He's gone because the moderators sensored the thread. They didn't like what we had to say so they took out his post and mine as well leaving huge gaps in the conversation. After that, it really didn't make much difference to delete his post. However the moderators left the post that started the whole $#!+ storm in the first place.
    Ben did a fine job on his aircraft. He didn't just talk about it. There are many on this forum who do more talking than anything else. There going to use this engine because they like this about that engine. Now it's been a few years and they're still talking about it. Ben built his airplane in 3 years including the engine. He did very little talking.

    Toobuilder, you get real bold and insulting on the internet. That's some more of your talking.


    Jim




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    Moderator autoreply's Avatar
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    Re: Deleting posts

    Quote Originally Posted by GrizzlyV6 View Post
    Ben built an airplane that works very well with the auto conversion. He shared his story with all for education and success. He's gone because the moderators sensored the thread. They didn't like what we had to say so they took out his post and mine as well leaving huge gaps in the conversation. After that, it really didn't make much difference to delete his post. However the moderators left the post that started the whole $#!+ storm in the first place.
    "Censorship" has nothing to do with his leaving, according to himself.

    Just for clarity: Posts or parts of them are only deleted if they cross the line and often they're far over it. Offensive posts, personal attacks, racism, false accusations, don't have a place on HBA. Behave and thee posts shall not be harmed...
    Kennis vermenigvuldig je door het te delen.
    (You multiply knowledge by dividing it)

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    Registered User 4trade's Avatar
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    Re: Deleting posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Toobuilder View Post

    Its one thing to stumble through projects without formal engineering training because that’s all you have to work with (like me), but it is quite another to display actual contempt for formal engineering and engineers themselves. This is a forum of give and take – of knowledge transfer. Often, this includes scrutiny, passion and even outright disagreement. If someone can’t stand that level of interaction, then good riddance.


    At any rate, pulling ones prior posts and thereby sabotaging the forum for future use is a pretty effective method for erasing one’s credibility. There are forums that only allow editing posts for a limited time before they are “set in stone” – I’d suggest we make that happen here.
    I agree! Same thing happen for Finnish aviation forum....somebody deleted lot of posts and that is sabotage for rest of us....and future user.

    Ben was giving lot of that kind of feedback, that it might rise some level of concern how possible customer will think of his work. That might be one reason for sudden chance of mind. If you constantly tell all here how bad is engineers, how he donīt like engineers and "good old eyeballing" method and practical experience is only one he trust.....it will give some kind of clue for prospective customer, what is behind that particular design.

    These forums are great place to find info. These will tell everybody how you think, how is your response for some kind of stressful/ pressed conversation, how you can take critic and on and on....Think about if you try to find job, and company google your name...they find all these conversation here.....they can find out in a minutes, that you are helpful and co operative person....or troublemaker and willing to argue and fight for other community......now start to think what kind of mark you leave here

    Write things that you can stand behind, or forget to write at all....
    Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur

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    Re: Deleting posts

    I think you guys may be missing Ben's point in the middle of your own emotional reactions. I happen to agree with him. There are a number of "engineer "types on this forum who just love to armchair analyze other peoples ideas and work. In other areas of life I have heard this reerred to as a "it wasn't made here" attitude. I am an auto mechanic by trade and calling. I get to see the results of the decisions that engineers make for all of us consumers on a daily basis, and I am not impressed. To condense the tirade, I will relate a couple of blanket statements that I would back up with my life and net worth.

    Engineering suffers from the fallacy that we call prediction. I like to refer to this as the "it should work like this" attitude. Gentlemen, math is not real life, and it is an arrogant man indeed who believes he can predict how his creation can survive in New England's climate.

    People on this forum gave Ben a lot of **** because their ideas did not agree with his. Unfortunately very few if any that I am aware of have built or flown anything. Ben has created an auto conversion that he has flown and shared widely with others. He was snubbed by some because of a perceived lack of credentials. Folks, degrees do not build airplanes. People do. We have collectively crapped on one of the most real forces in the homebuilding community.

    Shame should be felt by all.

    I happen to agree with Ben, and you may notice that I am developing my direct drive SBC setup without sharing much of the details along the way. This is expressly because of the attitudes that Ben received from some members of this group. Some of you will receive the full specs when the time is right (at no cost to yourselves) but I will not tolerate the criticism of individuals who cannot separate the idea of constructive criticism from their own notional limits of what will and will not work to fly an airplane. By the time I spill the beans, my conversion will have some hours on it, or I won't share it.

    I for one will miss the hands on point of view that Ben brought to this group, an I'm ashamed of those who challenged the reality of his working auto conversion. I would have told you to #$%k off as well. There are other people who do want to benefit from his actual experience rather than the theories of the more highly educated who haven't actually created anything that made it off of paper into reality.



    Shame on you,

    Nathan Merrill
    Vt. USA
    Last edited by Natty Bumpo; May 9th, 2012 at 05:54 PM. Reason: I am a poor typist.

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    Registered User bmcj's Avatar
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    Re: Deleting posts

    Natty, I agree that this does happen here, sometimes with sound reasoning behind the comments, but other times overzealously without sufficient basis. One thing for sure is that there are times where thick skin is more useful here than either engineering knowledge or hands on experience. Ben had an operational example to back up his claims and it's really hard to argue against that. In the aftermath, I wish I had the chance to go back and re-read his (and other's) posts to see where this all went wrong... I don't recall much negative comments directed toward Ben's work, but I may be mistaken as engines are not my forte.

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    Re: Deleting posts

    Quote Originally Posted by bmcj View Post
    Natty, I agree that this does happen here, sometimes with sound reasoning behind the comments, but other times overzealously without sufficient basis.
    All too often the over-zealously is on the receiving end of the line. I've seen many, many critical, but well-argumented posts that were interpreted and responded to in a way that had little, if any, resemblance to how they were written.
    In the aftermath, I wish I had the chance to go back and re-read his (and other's) posts to see where this all went wrong... I don't recall much negative comments directed toward Ben's work, but I may be mistaken as engines are not my forte.
    I think I've seen the big majority of the posts regarding this. There wasn't any negativity, not even much founded criticism. Just a matter of not able to handle different opinions and responding in a childish way (trashing all your posts).



    This is a forum. Forum means a place to exchange ideas, to discuss them and to do so with mutual respect and based on arguments, not on opinions that you're not willing to change. To teach and learn. To test your ideas, designs and see them being turned down, usually because they're not so good as you thought they were.

    If people don't want that, this is not the place for them. For preaching there are other places...
    Kennis vermenigvuldig je door het te delen.
    (You multiply knowledge by dividing it)

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