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Thread: Deleting posts

  1. #16
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    Re: Deleting posts

    Yeah I hear you. It's just that from my point of view it is hard to sanctify the engineering community when learned companies such as Ford are manufacturing truck where the (cast aluminum) fuel pump driver is bolted to the frame crossmember (steel) under the truck bed over the spare tire........where it won't ever get dirty or salty.....ever.
    I have a high school education. No more.

    I know that you cannot put steel alongside aluminum without penalty. Don't tell me that the wise and learned engineers at Ford have forgotten high school chemistry? Who pays for this (deliberate) idiocy? You the consumer.

    That is only one of hundreds of examples I can cite, and the natural result, for a thinking and observant person, is that Engineers are working at their best guess (just like the rest of us) worked out to a more extreme decimal place. No more.

    My apologies to any engineers here. This is not personal.

    Nathan.

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    Moderator Topaz's Avatar
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    Re: Deleting posts

    Quote Originally Posted by GrizzlyV6 View Post
    Ben built an airplane that works very well with the auto conversion. He shared his story with all for education and success. He's gone because the moderators sensored the thread. They didn't like what we had to say so they took out his post and mine as well leaving huge gaps in the conversation. After that, it really didn't make much difference to delete his post. However the moderators left the post that started the whole $#!+ storm in the first place....
    As the moderator involved, I take exception to this characterization. I deleted Ben's posts (and the others, including my own, I'll point out) because they were not contributing to the discussion at hand (very far off-topic), and were well into personal-attack territory, which is prohibited under the Rules of Conduct. The thread took a very ugly turn away from the original topic and into a blanket and aggressive argument on the virtues and demerits of engineering in general. I edited out everything contributing to that diversion. The deletion of posts there had nothing to do with censorship or enforcing a particular point of view. It was simply ending a very negative, off-topic discussion and getting the thread back on-track. Nothing more, nothing less.

    As Autoreply has pointed out, we're very proud of the usually civil nature of these boards, as opposed to others that deal with this topic. The kind of argument, personal attacks, and derision that were frequent on those boards (and I'm thinking of one in particular) are not welcome here. If you're here to argue and bash other users, this is not the place for you. If you're here to discuss homebuilt airplanes and build friendships, we very much want you on these boards. The Rules of Conduct are very clear. If anyone hasn't read them, I recommend it.
    "If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them." - Henry David Thoreau

    Design Project: Conceptual Design of an "Inexpensive" Single-Seat Motorglider
    Discussion Thread for the Project: Discussion: Conceptual Design of an "Inexpensive" Single-Seat Motorglider

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  4. #18
    Registered User GrizzlyV6's Avatar
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    Re: Deleting posts

    Natty, you have an eye for good character. Ben has always been there to help whom ever would ask.
    The comment that started the whole thing was from Orion. In regard to engineering a PSRU he said "few if any do it right". That's a blanket statement at least and sounds to me like a "FALSE ACCUSATION". Orion admitted to not having anything designed anything that worked properly and got questioned about it after he made his blanket statement. Ben and I are using the Belted Air Power redrive and I commented the BAP had an engineer that went all the way through the project to completion. Not just a drawing on a piece of paper. Then the clique of moderators and "engineer" types got their feelings hurt when Orion got challenged so the moderators removed the post that they didn't like exept the one that started the whole mess. Now a REAL homebuilder is gone. If this a forum for homebuilt airplanes, fine. It sounds more like an engineering forum for those types. Change the name to reflect that so that this doesn't happen again. Homebuilders have done some incredible things in their garages and "backyards". And I still wont run my engine with it's fixed pitch prop WOT. Why would I?


    Jim




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    Moderator Topaz's Avatar
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    Re: Deleting posts

    Quote Originally Posted by bmcj View Post
    ...In the aftermath, I wish I had the chance to go back and re-read his (and other's) posts to see where this all went wrong... I don't recall much negative comments directed toward Ben's work, but I may be mistaken as engines are not my forte.
    I don't recall any particular criticism directed towards Ben's actual work. Quite obviously his installation was working very well for him, regardless of how he developed it. Where the problem erupted was in his blanket derogatory remarks regarding engineering in general. Ben apparently holds a low opinion of engineering, and he's entitled to it, of course. However, his expression of that disdain was focused at a particular engineering-centric member of the boards (not me), and was becoming more than a little venomous. He was out of line, both ethically and in terms of the HBA Rules of Conduct. Opinions are welcome here. Attacking another member with them is not.
    "If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them." - Henry David Thoreau

    Design Project: Conceptual Design of an "Inexpensive" Single-Seat Motorglider
    Discussion Thread for the Project: Discussion: Conceptual Design of an "Inexpensive" Single-Seat Motorglider

  6. #20
    Moderator Topaz's Avatar
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    Re: Deleting posts

    Quote Originally Posted by GrizzlyV6 View Post
    Natty, you have an eye for good character. Ben has always been there to help whom ever would ask.
    The comment that started the whole thing was from Orion. In regard to engineering a PSRU he said "few if any do it right". That's a blanket statement at least and sounds to me like a "FALSE ACCUSATION". Orion admitted to not having anything designed anything that worked properly and got questioned about it after he made his blanket statement. Ben and I are using the Belted Air Power redrive and I commented the BAP had an engineer that went all the way through the project to completion. Not just a drawing on a piece of paper. Then the clique of moderators and "engineer" types got their feelings hurt when Orion got challenged so the moderators removed the post that they didn't like exept the one that started the whole mess. Now a REAL homebuilder is gone. If this a forum for homebuilt airplanes, fine. It sounds more like an engineering forum for those types. Change the name to reflect that so that this doesn't happen again. Homebuilders have done some incredible things in their garages and "backyards". And I still wont run my engine with it's fixed pitch prop WOT. Why would I?


    Jim
    Again, I refute this characterization. Ben was disagreeing with Orion, yes. That's okay. Making challenges and attacks, which he was doing in spades, is not. The editing I did in that forum had nothing to do with a "clique" or anyone's feelings being hurt, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop making that accusation. If you have a complaint with me regarding that episode, it belongs in a private message. With regard to your involvement in that thread, I specifically PM'd you to let you know that I was deleting your posts because of the general deletion of that side-bar discussion, not because of anything in particular you said.

    FOR THE RECORD: I have no problem with "mechanic" types. Frankly, such people are a storehouse of practical, real-world knowledge and are as welcome here as the most experienced engineer. I mean that. But I will also repeat that attacking or aggressively challenging another member is not welcome here, and don't be surprised if such comments are moderated.
    "If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them." - Henry David Thoreau

    Design Project: Conceptual Design of an "Inexpensive" Single-Seat Motorglider
    Discussion Thread for the Project: Discussion: Conceptual Design of an "Inexpensive" Single-Seat Motorglider

  7. #21
    Moderator Dana's Avatar
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    Re: Deleting posts

    Natty, Grizzly,

    Like it or not, aircraft design is an engineering activity. It doesn't mean that somebody without an engineering degree can't design an airplane (or a redrive); certainly many have done so. It also doesn't mean that a degreed or working engineer can't make a mistake or a flawed design, again, many (including myself) have done so. But we see enough people here present ridiculous ideas with no conception of why it can't possibly work (I am not including Ben in that group), or who want to build something that may or may not work but can't be tested safely so an engineering analysis is required, that the standard refrain becomes "did you" / "you have to" do the engineering. It's not an "engineering clique", but often we don't have the time or desire to analyze and/or explain just why something isn't a good idea... so we encourage the non engineers to learn, rather than spoon feeding them the answers.

    Grizzly, your statement "Orion admitted to not having anything designed anything that worked properly" appears to be offensive quoting out of context. Most engineers have done work that never got used for various reasons, which is what Orion was talking about, but the way you worded it, it sounds like he designed nothing but a bunch of failures... which is not what he said.

    -Dana

    "The line between badass and dumbass is not only fine, it is a grey, wavy line and is in a different place for each individual."

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  9. #22
    Registered User GrizzlyV6's Avatar
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    Re: Deleting posts

    Ok, so another moderator doesn't like my wording. With all due respect, I really don't give a damn. I didn't like the wording from Orion either. However the moderators didn't remove his accusitory statement or insulting comments about eyball engineering or backyard engineering and the one about few if any do it right. My personal favorite was'nt from Orion, but Toobuilder about Jimbob's cousins airboat.
    Did you see the LS engine with the airboat gear drive in the rv7 that's been flying since 2003. What do you engineer types think about that one?

    Believe it or not, there are other very capable engineers out there. You or Orion or the staff that Toobuilder works with, aren't the only ones who can draw something. As for Orion's talents, I should have used PSRU instead of ANYTHING. In no way did I mean to imply that he only designed failures. I have no place to make such a statement.

    This has gone far enough. The actions of the moderators have driven off a true homebuilder and the "engineer types repeatedly spit in the face of homebuilders that don't have a degree or work around a staff of engineers. There were many airplanes built before HBA came into existance by backyard mechanics that never heard of any of you.
    Please, I don't mean any disrespect.


    Jim




  10. #23
    Moderator Topaz's Avatar
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    Re: Deleting posts

    Quote Originally Posted by GrizzlyV6 View Post
    ...The actions of the moderators have driven off a true homebuilder ...
    Jim, I wish you'd cool down a bit. If someone can't abide by the Rules of Conduct here and decides to leave because we actually enforced them, then so be it. I don't care who they are. We didn't "drive" Ben to do anything. He left of his own accord, and deleted his posts of his own accord. In no way was any of the moderation on that thread an attack on Ben or his opinions, and Orion is entitled to his opinion about "backyard engineering" just as you or Ben are entitled to yours about the subject. There is room for both here, and we're not going to stifle his any more than we stifled Ben's. There was no moderation of Ben's comments until he started making it personal. You're consistently failing to see that distinction.

    Veiled accusations of cliques and other such behavior against the moderators are not only absurd, but quite insulting. Please stop making them.
    "If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them." - Henry David Thoreau

    Design Project: Conceptual Design of an "Inexpensive" Single-Seat Motorglider
    Discussion Thread for the Project: Discussion: Conceptual Design of an "Inexpensive" Single-Seat Motorglider

  11. #24
    Registered User GrizzlyV6's Avatar
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    Re: Deleting posts

    What's this cool down crap about. If I were pissed it would be deserved, but I'm not. I stated my opinion, that's all. I didn't do it with anger or to be hateful or rude. It seems to me that you're the one that's angry because I referred to the moderators as a clique. Again, you don't like what I had to say so you accuse me of being hot which just isn't the case. Read the post that you didn't delete. The one that started it all. I've pointed you to it a few times now but you continue to refuse to see it. Your buddy started the whole mess with "I'll gaurantee, few if any do it right", the shiney box, eyeball engineering and more as the thread continued and you point the finger elsewhere. You don't like it that I called the moderators a clique, but that's what it is. Like it or not and that makes you angry. Is this horse dead yet?




  12. #25
    Registered User Toobuilder's Avatar
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    Re: Deleting posts

    Jim, since you are so desperate to drag me into this, I'll simply respond by pointing out that we have different goals. For example, you are obviously very impressed by simply seeing something like a V8 powered kitplane fly around. While I'll readily admit that this is an impressive feat and it is "A" measure of success, I don't think it is "THE" measure of success by any means. I need a little more understanding of "why" it works. I'm impressed when someone can show me the calculated loads of the engine mount they designed, while you seem to be satisfied that the engine hasn't fallen off yet...

    We're different. Let's deal with it and move on.

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  14. #26
    Registered User Head in the clouds's Avatar
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    Re: Deleting posts

    I think all of this is very disappointing.

    I signed up to HBA after a period of lurking, to be able to contribute because I was so impressed with how harmoniously and intelligently the majority of discussions were being conducted.

    FWIW I think the whole 'them and us' thing between qualified engineers and others is a lot of codswallop and those who start or sustain disagreements based on it are deluded. In my profession as a CAD modeller and structural draftsman I have daily dealings with qualified engineers and I can tell you that there's no-one who seems to know less about structures than a newly qualified engineer but give them a few years of hands-on experience and suddenly they learn a hell of a lot ...

    My point is that it's not only the qualification that makes the difference, it's the experience using it. But if you don't have background knowledge to build on, however it was gained, you're going nowhere.

    I am an 'unqualified' engineer. The term 'engineer' doesn't in itself indicate any form of qualification, just that I work in engineering. I do all my own aircraft designs, and am able to do so because I have had the privilege and good fortune to have been coached, helped and nurtured by others more skilled and more learned than I am. Some of them were 'qualified' engineers and some were eyeball/backyard etc engineers. Whenever I get really stuck I consult someone qualified enough to provide the answers I need, especially where life may be risked by failure of a critical structure.

    One of my mentors is an exceptionally skilled toolmaker (ret) who, for many years held the exalted position of Chief Design Engineer for the General Electric Company (Aus). He is self taught and never went to university and only had an airforce apprenticeship. GEC didn't know that and it made no difference to the quality of his work because he researched what he needed to know and was very skilled. Mind you, I don't know where the blame would have rested if something critical had gone wrong due to his miscalculation. So in this complex technical world I, for one, as a proud backyard eyeball engineer, am very pleased that we have suitably qualified people making the critical calculations that affect my everday life.

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  16. #27
    Moderator Topaz's Avatar
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    Re: Deleting posts

    Quote Originally Posted by GrizzlyV6 View Post
    What's this cool down crap about. If I were pissed it would be deserved, but I'm not. I stated my opinion, that's all. I didn't do it with anger or to be hateful or rude. It seems to me that you're the one that's angry because I referred to the moderators as a clique. Again, you don't like what I had to say so you accuse me of being hot which just isn't the case. Read the post that you didn't delete. The one that started it all. I've pointed you to it a few times now but you continue to refuse to see it. Your buddy started the whole mess with "I'll gaurantee, few if any do it right", the shiney box, eyeball engineering and more as the thread continued and you point the finger elsewhere. You don't like it that I called the moderators a clique, but that's what it is. Like it or not and that makes you angry. Is this horse dead yet?
    Stop beating it and it can be. You've expressed your opinions, and I think everyone is clear about where you stand. I've stated my reasons for what I've done, and I stand by them. Your accusations have no basis in fact. If you have a problem with me or my actions, the proper course is to take the discussion private, or send your concerns to the other moderators or to Jake. I'm just as subject to the RoC as anyone else and, if you feel there has been a violation on my part, I urge you to report it. The public forums are not the appropriate place for this kind of talk, as is clearly stated in the HBA Rules of Conduct. Again, I ask you to please stop.
    Last edited by Topaz; May 10th, 2012 at 12:12 AM.
    "If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them." - Henry David Thoreau

    Design Project: Conceptual Design of an "Inexpensive" Single-Seat Motorglider
    Discussion Thread for the Project: Discussion: Conceptual Design of an "Inexpensive" Single-Seat Motorglider

  17. #28
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    Re: Deleting posts

    Well I have to add my two cents here...

    I think the moderating here is a bit heavy handed...I moderate a couple of yahoo groups which I started...with a modest but fairly active membership of about 300...including a few distinguished names in the biz...

    I have only ever had to step in once in all that time...and literally thousands of posts...and that was in the case of blatant personal attacks and name calling...from basically a couple of junior members who had no creds whatsoever and whose disrespectful behavior could not be excused...

    Look in the real aerosopace industry when we design, build a prototype and flight test that bird (which are exactly the steps that homebuilding entails...) we often end up fighting like hell...it's not all peaches and cream...sometimes people end up carrying grudges for months or years...

    But the airplane gets built and problems get hashed out...that is what it is all about...if you are here to provide a discussion forum then let people discuss...

    My advice to the moderators is let the chips fall where they may...unless someone with absolutely nothing to say starts calling people names...then let the arguing continue...that's how things get hashed out...

    The simple fact is there is ALWAYS more than one right answer...arguments serve a purpose...in academia it is called peer review...and things get heated as hell from what I have seen of that world...

    So just relax a bit...one thing that bugs the hell out of me is this "Off Topic" thing...why is this some sacred cow...?

    So what if things go off topic...?

    Also bugs me to see that when an argument breaks out...people who did not post even one contribution...suddenly jump in and start complaining...and whining for the moderator to step in...

    "things have gone too far..."..."things have gone off topic..."...things have deterioriated..."...blah...blah...fricking blah...

    Well what the F*** precious...?...If you're so fragile to get your feathers ruffled THEN DON'T READ THE THREAD...

    go somewhere else where things are peaceful and quiet...

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  19. #29
    Moderator Topaz's Avatar
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    Re: Deleting posts

    Quote Originally Posted by gordonaut View Post
    Well I have to add my two cents here...
    I appreciate your input, but the moderating done here is why - usually - this forum doesn't erupt into argument like some of the other homebuilt forums out there. This is the nature of this forum. I also appreciate that many people would run things differently, but this is how we run things here. The Rules of Conduct are very clear. I don't see Jake changing them any time soon, although you are more than welcome to make suggestions. However, until such a time as changes are enacted, the current RoC will be enforced.

    Quote Originally Posted by gordonaut View Post
    ...go somewhere else where things are peaceful and quiet...
    This place is generally peaceful and quiet. And has been for years. It's the reason many of our members - including myself - came here from other forums. If you're looking for a forum with lots of argument, this isn't the place.
    "If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them." - Henry David Thoreau

    Design Project: Conceptual Design of an "Inexpensive" Single-Seat Motorglider
    Discussion Thread for the Project: Discussion: Conceptual Design of an "Inexpensive" Single-Seat Motorglider

  20. #30
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    Re: Deleting posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Topaz View Post
    I appreciate your input...If you're looking for a forum with lots of argument, this isn't the place.
    Gotcha...

    No wonder people are leaving...

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