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Thread: Rand Robinson KR2 is SOLD in McKinney, TX

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    Registered User smittysrv's Avatar
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    Rand Robinson KR2 is SOLD in McKinney, TX

    Hi Guys! One of our long time EAA Chapter members has a Rand Robinson KR2 for sale in McKinney, TX.
    Check it out.

    Thanks!
    Smitty
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    For Sale - Rand Robinson KR2. Fixed tri-gear. Aircraft is selling "as parts" only. Engine has about 100 hours on it. Everything on the airplane is working. Documentation and wiring diagrams for everything in the airplane will be furnished with each part.

    http://www.eaa1246.org/projectpics/13.jpg

    Parts List on the Aircraft:
    DAN DIEHL Landing Gear (Tri gear) engine mount - $150.00
    Engine REVMASTER (and engine mnt $205) - $3,000.00
    Wheels and brakes (3) - $300.00
    Engine cowl (custom) - $115
    Welded gas tank (22 Gallons) (custom) - $100
    Steel firewall $45, exhaust $295, gauges $292 -$632 for all
    Four in One exhaust pipe - $295
    Terra NAV Receiver (Serial No. 001310G) - $40
    FALCON GAUGE Gyro Horizon Electrical 14VDC (non TSO'd) Model GH02E-3, Serial GHE031352 - $500.00
    ACS PRODUCTS Throttle Control (Model A-820) - $51.00
    NIGEL REDDISH Stall Warner (UD? -V3RD 1402, 16(4)/250 T85) - $35.00
    AMERI-KING Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) (Model AK-450, Serial 466397) - $100.00
    KING KT-76 Transponder - $100
    AMERI-KING Mode C Encoder (Model AK-350)- $75
    FALCON GAUGE Altimeter (non TSO'd) MODEL NO. ALT/20INF-3 20,000 ft - $65
    UMA Vertical Speed Indicator (3-1/8" 0-2,000 ft.) $78
    PRINCE AIRCRAFT CO Carbon Fiber P-Tip Propeller (52" BT 48", Leading edge protectors) - $500.00
    UMA Airspeed Indicator (3-1/8ASI 40-180KTS) - $128.00
    Oil Temperature Gauge (2 1/4") - $42.00
    Precision vertical Card compass (PAI-700 14V) - $270.00
    Fuel shut off valve P/N - $29.00
    Collapsible Tow Bar - $46.00
    GARMIN GPSMAP 296 Americas, Ser. No. 67023208 (IOR-022492) with GARMIN 8.4V LI ION Rechargable Battery (P/N 011-00955-00) and GARMIN AC Adapter (Model FSV 120125UU15-1) - $300.00
    UMA Tachometer - $160.00
    ICOM IC-A200 Panel Mount Com VHF Air Band Transceiver Ser# 0117269 - $400.00
    Propeller - Edward Sterba Aircraft Propellers (Wood, urethane leading edge) - $300
    Spinners (2) One for each prop. 48.95, backplate 29.95, frontplate 23.95 (10") - $100.00

    ENTIRE AIRPLANE, AS PARTS - $5,000.00 - OBO

    CONTACT: Jerry Burchfield
    Email: frlt@earthlink.net
    Home phone: 972 396 1025 Cell: 214 477 6605
    Smitty
    SmittysRV.com - my RV-9A Project
    Fun Places to Fly

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    Registered User cluttonfred's Avatar
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    re: Rand Robinson KR2 is SOLD in McKinney, TX

    Question, if the airplane is in such good shape, then why is it being parted out? Does it have problems that render it unsafe to fly? It sounds like a perfectly nice little plane and a steal at $5,000. There's a shot of the engine here, too. EAA Chapter 1246, McKinney, Texas - Experimental Aircraft Association
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    Matthew Long, Editor
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    Registered User Jay Kempf's Avatar
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    re: Rand Robinson KR2 is SOLD in McKinney, TX

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    Question, if the airplane is in such good shape, then why is it being parted out? Does it have problems that render it unsafe to fly? It sounds like a perfectly nice little plane and a steal at $5,000. There's a shot of the engine here, too. EAA Chapter 1246, McKinney, Texas - Experimental Aircraft Association
    This is the USA. It is selling as parts because the owner doesn't want the law suit to come back to his doorstep. Interesting question and somewhat on topic. What if you sell a perfectly good flying aircraft as parts and the buyer puts it back together and flies it and kills themselves and someone else? Does the as is where is part of the sales agreement cover the seller and the original builder assuming the NTSB targets the airframe or construction as the cause? I am guessing that because the new owner would end up talking to the FSDO to get a new N number for the thing and with a little homework they will find that the thing was already registered and find out that there is no build log to prove 51% that the buyer would be in limbo and not be able to fly it. Have been hearing these stories for a while now and this makes me curious. Is there a strategy for experimentals where you buy a collection of parts of other homebuilts to then build a new experimental and you can still proceed to a repairman's cert on the new airframe?
    Jay K.

    VT USA

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    Registered User rheuschele's Avatar
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    re: Rand Robinson KR2 is SOLD in McKinney, TX

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Kempf View Post
    I am guessing that because the new owner would end up talking to the FSDO to get a new N number for the thing and with a little homework they will find that the thing was already registered and find out that there is no build log to prove 51% that the buyer would be in limbo and not be able to fly it. Have been hearing these stories for a while now and this makes me curious.
    What 51% would you be trying to prove? 51% done by amateurs? or 51% done by only one person?
    Ron

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    Registered User Jay Kempf's Avatar
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    re: Rand Robinson KR2 is SOLD in McKinney, TX

    Quote Originally Posted by rheuschele View Post
    What 51% would you be trying to prove? 51% done by amateurs? or 51% done by only one person?
    Ron
    51% meaning you try to go the FAA and register a new N number as a new experimental but it is a collection of parts from an existing N number. At that point you would have to have the build log, which you wouldn't. Assuming your goal was getting an experimental cert and a repairmans cert for the new N number as an experimental that is. If not you just register it under the old N number and have an A&P do the annual and you would have to log any changes you made to the thing I suppose. Just curious. Am I mixing up experimental with kit built? If built from scratch there is no 51% rule to prove as long as you can prove you built it from scratch. Then the repairman's cert is obvious. It is a type cert of one and you are the manufacturer. When it is a kit you have to prove that you built 51% of it to get your repairman's cert, right? I don't think this is off topic.
    Jay K.

    VT USA

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    Registered User cluttonfred's Avatar
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    re: Rand Robinson KR2 is SOLD in McKinney, TX

    If I understand the rules correctly, then the repairman's certificate and 51% rule only apply to the original builder, which makes sense. I don't know if the repairman's certificate holder would even be allowed to exercise those privileges if he/she bought a second-hand aircraft of the same type that he/she did not build. As the second-hand owner of an experimental, I believe that you can only do the same maintenance yourself than you would be allowed to do as a non-A&P on a production aircraft.
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    Moderator Dana's Avatar
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    re: Rand Robinson KR2 is SOLD in McKinney, TX

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Kempf View Post
    Am I mixing up experimental with kit built? If built from scratch there is no 51% rule to prove as long as you can prove you built it from scratch. Then the repairman's cert is obvious. It is a type cert of one and you are the manufacturer. When it is a kit you have to prove that you built 51% of it to get your repairman's cert, right? I don't think this is off topic.
    Legally there is no difference between a kit and scratch built; in both cases it's necessary to show that the major part ("51%" doesn't actually appear anywhere in the regulations) was built for "education or recreation". The only difference is that for a scratch build it's obvious but in this era of prefabricated kits it's not.

    Any one of the original builders can get the repairman certificate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    If I understand the rules correctly, then the repairman's certificate and 51% rule only apply to the original builder, which makes sense. I don't know if the repairman's certificate holder would even be allowed to exercise those privileges if he/she bought a second-hand aircraft of the same type that he/she did not build. As the second-hand owner of an experimental, I believe that you can only do the same maintenance yourself than you would be allowed to do as a non-A&P on a production aircraft.
    The repairman certificate applies to the one single airplane you built, not others of the same model. All it does is allow you to do the annual condition inspection and sign it off. Anybody can perform any maintenance on an experimental; there are not the same restrictions as on a production aircraft.

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    re: Rand Robinson KR2 is SOLD in McKinney, TX

    As to liability coming back on a builder, it's talked about all the time, and you hear of perfectly good airplanes being parted out or cut up. I've been looking into this issue for several years, and a respected co-worker has done a lot more extensive research going back to the early 90's, and we can't find even a single example of this ever occuring. I'd be happy to hear any firsthand accounts of lawsuits, but as far as I can tell it's nearly urban legend status. Of course no one wants to be the first test case, but sometimes we need a reality check. As a flying aircraft, with airworthiness cert intact, a project is worth so much more to both the seller and prospective buyers that it seems borderline paranoid to keep harping on the mere potential for legal action.

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    Registered User Jay Kempf's Avatar
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    re: Rand Robinson KR2 is SOLD in McKinney, TX

    Quote Originally Posted by psween View Post
    As to liability coming back on a builder, it's talked about all the time, and you hear of perfectly good airplanes being parted out or cut up. I've been looking into this issue for several years, and a respected co-worker has done a lot more extensive research going back to the early 90's, and we can't find even a single example of this ever occuring. I'd be happy to hear any firsthand accounts of lawsuits, but as far as I can tell it's nearly urban legend status. Of course no one wants to be the first test case, but sometimes we need a reality check. As a flying aircraft, with airworthiness cert intact, a project is worth so much more to both the seller and prospective buyers that it seems borderline paranoid to keep harping on the mere potential for legal action.
    That's where I was coming from on this. I think it might be urban legend too. Just curious about parting out and cutting up behavior and why. If the thing has a N number then it can be registered to a new owner and an annual can be done and any mods can be done and reconciled at the annual is my understanding. The only thing the repairman's cert gives you is the ability to do your own annual which is nice but not that big a deal in the scheme of things since you can do your own work and then have the inspection done afterwards.

    My question was, if you buy a thing that is a set of parts or a set of parts from different airplanes, you then combine them into one airplane and apply for a new N number is that possible? In some states when you build a kit car from a donor there is a case to use the VIN of the donor car and call the thing whatever the donor car was. That meaning that you just modified an existing design with new parts and then have to get the new hybrid construction through inspection in that state. Some allow that. Some don't. Not sure how the FAA handles that.
    Jay K.

    VT USA

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    TFF
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    re: Rand Robinson KR2 is SOLD in McKinney, TX

    The builder is considered a "manufacturer" so his name will be attached to the end. What can be done is write an open ended write up in the log that has to be answered. Inspect this, that, and the other in writing. You have to answer a discrepancy. Ignored would be on the new owner; answered, on the new owner. Unless there is some kind of coverup of work like gluing 2x4s to the spars, like a wood wing Mooney owner did and died, I dont think you would be held responsible. The problem becomes do you have the money to defend yourself if it got crazy. Some of these small high performance airplanes scared the hell out of the owners so they dont want someone else killing themselves on their work, but want their money out.

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    Registered User cluttonfred's Avatar
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    re: Rand Robinson KR2 is SOLD in McKinney, TX

    Hmm, off topic, I know, but I'd like some clarification...when talking about the "major part" being built by the owner, how is that measured. By volume, weight, hours, dollars? And how does the builder document it in cases where there is some doubt?
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    Registered User Jay Kempf's Avatar
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    re: Rand Robinson KR2 is SOLD in McKinney, TX

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    Hmm, off topic, I know, but I'd like some clarification...when talking about the "major part" being built by the owner, how is that measured. By volume, weight, hours, dollars? And how does the builder document it in cases where there is some doubt?
    I think currently the builder documents (pictures, receipts, schedule, hours, etc...) and the inspector makes a determination.
    Jay K.

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    re: Rand Robinson KR2 is SOLD in McKinney, TX

    So unless I am missing something, this is a heck of a deal. I see that it has an N number. Why can’t the current owner transfer the plane to the new owner and would that not relive him (the original owner) of any responsibility ?

    Don't know if this plane qualifies as Light Sport, but if it does, I would be interested.



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    Registered User fly2kads's Avatar
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    re: Rand Robinson KR2 is SOLD in McKinney, TX

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    Hmm, off topic, I know, but I'd like some clarification...when talking about the "major part" being built by the owner, how is that measured. By volume, weight, hours, dollars? And how does the builder document it in cases where there is some doubt?
    Holy cow, we are sure threadjacking some nice fellow's for sale listing!

    To answer your question, though, Matthew. Read Advisory Circular AC20-27G and all will be revealed. AC 20-27G - Certification and Operation of Amateur-Built Aircraft - Document Information The material at the beginning covers the process and the documentation requirements. Appendix 8 is what is used to determine the "major portion." It is a long list of activities that go into the construction of a typical aircraft. You go down the list and check off the ones that were part of a kit, made from scratch, hired out, etc. To oversimplify just a bit, you need to make sure that 51% of the boxes come out in your favor. That's the U.S. answer; no telling how it will be done in whatever part of the world you'll be in!

    Back to the listing, I may be interested in the Revmaster. I may have to drop $$$$ on a new air conditioner for the house, though. If Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.
    Last edited by fly2kads; June 6th, 2012 at 07:38 PM. Reason: fixed typo

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    Registered User cluttonfred's Avatar
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    re: Rand Robinson KR2 is SOLD in McKinney, TX

    Thanks, that is exactly what I needed!
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    Matthew Long, Editor
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    Voici ce que j'ai fait...vous pouvez en faire autant!
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