How to crash a Plane and survive!?

I guess he prefers playing with technology rather than flying properly.

See and Avoid? Nah just hit the God Button and see what happens.

Originally Posted by piperpilot1363

i think brs chutes are gear towards airframe failures and mid airs, but then again, there was that crash a few weeks ago where the chute deployed, but the cirrus caught fire, killing the two occupants

I suspect the imact killed the occupants and the fire was just an after-effect of the collision. In fact, some reports (not verified) reported seeing the people fall from the wreckage. There is also strong speculation to conclude that the parachute self-initiated due to the impact. Even if they had survived the initial impact and not pulled the chute, it is doubtful they could have landed and gotten out before the fire consumed the plane.

Originally Posted by wsimpso1

Why is there not more commentary on this guy failing to see a tow plane and glider? He very obviously was not looking very hard for other airplanes and could have killed people in one or both of the other ships due to his lousy level of "see and avoid".

As Seb pointed out, there may have been issues with sun angle and line of sight being obscured by the cowling with the tow plane coming from the lower right. Also, he appeared to be following another plane, so his attention may have been misdirected. You also have to wonder (with him following the other plane) if they were in an airport traffic pattern and the tow pilot may have cut across the pattern.

Originally Posted by litespeed

Imagine how careful car drivers would be if a they had a spike on the steering wheel and a crash would impale them- that would change the outlook a bit.
Too many rely on passive safety systems and fly/drive with their head in the clouds, skill and attitude will always make a safer pilot and it would be extremely rare where you have no choice but be a passenger and watch it all happen.

Excellent point and excellent suggestion (the steering wheel spike) to emphasize that point.

Originally Posted by BBerson

Some sort of automatic deep stall maneuver might work also. NASA did a study on this where the horizontal tail flips up and puts the aircraft into a deep stall. I think they used a 2-33 glider.

The flip up stab is used on competition free flight models and works quite well... on a well balanced model at least. I think that the higher wing loading of a real plane would still result in spine-crushing decent rate.

Bruce

Originally Posted by bmcj

The flip up stab is used on competition free flight models and works quite well... on a well balanced model at least. I think that the higher wing loading of a real plane would still result in spine-crushing decent rate.

Bruce

The undercarriage would need to be designed for this descent rate. The Carter Copter was designed to handle a vertical autorotation impact, for instance. The advantage of a well designed crash structure is that it would work in the majority of accidents that occur at low level without enough time to react.

The flip up stab would help in the case of a VFR pilot lost in clouds.
Some other system that could limit the descent rate would be useful. Perhaps a giant airbag could have as much drag as a parachute.

Or some other high drag invention is needed, the deep stall wing is not quite enough drag.

AN-2 colt (big russian biplane) pilots are trained to deploy full flaps and pull all the way back on the stick and sit tight, the plane will slowly descend to the ground, and the undercarriage (which is huge,btw) will absorb most of the impact. In practice, it always seemed to work!

Andrew

Originally Posted by piperpilot1363

i think brs chutes are gear towards airframe failures and mid airs, but then again, there was that crash a few weeks ago where the chute deployed, but the cirrus caught fire, killing the two occupants

The Cirrus had to have the 'chute to meet certification requirements. It's reluctant to recover from a spin.

The 'chutes are popular with ultralighters, I think, because of the distressing frequency of airframe failures. There have been a bunch of ultralights crash here in Canada, some because of ignorant design and some because of ignorant airframe modifications or poor building practices. And then there are always the accidents involving ignorant flying: pilots trying stuff that they have no training for and violating the laws of physics, which don't like to be violated.

Dan

Here's an example of a straight forward crash (by a friend of mine) with a happy ending.

The World Link : Pilot survives biplane crash



Bruce

Greetings all...its been awhile...but I am back from a crazy year of Indy Lights...and back working on the F1 air racer project again...as well as with a manufacturer of a totally new full motion simulator system that can be either a racecar...a motorcycle or an aircraft...or...or...or...

So...this whole "How to crash a plane and survive" thing is very much in the forefront of my thinking...especially as I plan on being the pilot of this racer as well as its engineer...and as Eddie Lawson told me once back in the '80's..."If you dont fall off at least once a year...youre not going fast enough...do it in practice though..."

The whole issue of spinal fractures and the associated damage is very similar to what we encounter in Indycar wrecks...and they have nearly eliminated them...

The poured foam seat as is mandatory in Indycar and Indy Lights...I am hoping will be a great safety improvement in these racing planes as well...it basically turns the entire cockpit into a full body helmet for the pilot...

Look at the video of Ana Beatriz's crash at Indy in her Sam Schmidt Motorsports Indy Lights Dallara last year...she hit the inside wall off turn 4 at nearly 180MPH...90deg on...totally sideways...and did not break her hips...

Pick an Indycar or Lights crash of the last few years...how 'bout Andretti getting 25ft above the backstraight at the Speedway....at 235MPH...and walking away...

Or that crazy Russian running over our car (The ELFF Racing Indy Lights #55) at Kansas last year at 190+ and getting similar altitude...and utterly destroying his carbon fiber tub...

It hit so hard upside down that it broke BOTH cylinderheads open...I looked at the top of the engine and could see 3 of the 4 cams...!!!

The Dallara safety rep and I walked around his car after the wreck and we both decided there were only 3 salvageable parts on the car...the three master cylinders!!! He limped away with a cut on his ankle...

So...it is possible...it just takes appropriate engineering...


Dave

Dave,

How would you envision such a safety cockpit?

Use a glass sandwich airframe- low monowing with single seat as a example if you could?

The extra effort and cost of such a passive sytem could well be much better than the cost of a ballistic chute that might work if pulled high enough. I would rather do a well designed safety cage and save the bucks and spend it on more flight training/hours to be a better pilot rather than a passenger with a god button.

Phil

There is a German kit aircraft , (forgot he name- Twister?), a single seater that uses a Kevlar protective pilot "tub" inside it's composite fuselage.

As airplanes get bigger, the cost and complexity of recovery chutes gets huge- even a Cessna 172 type is about $10,000 now. Some configurations, such as pusher aircraft, would lend themselves to an F111 arrangement where the crew compartment only detaches in an emergency and is recovered by parachute. That would limit the necessary size of the chute to something more managable. Just make damned sure to check the pins on the pre-flight....

PT,

Yeah I know the Twister- it has a kevlar tub, which I think is a great idea and sure to be cheaper and have real world safety in all circumstances that a God button will never have.

F111 capsule is interesting but I fear would be very complex, heavy and expensive. But it would be fun watching it depart the plane on a trail of rocket smoke! It may lead to some silly use of the god button though and ensure the aircraft is a right off. I think we really need to ensure pilots fly aircraft all the way to the ground and use the structure to absorb excess forces.

Phil

Originally Posted by litespeed

Dave,

How would you envision such a safety cockpit?

Use a glass sandwich airframe- low monowing with single seat as a example if you could?

The extra effort and cost of such a passive sytem could well be much better than the cost of a ballistic chute that might work if pulled high enough. I would rather do a well designed safety cage and save the bucks and spend it on more flight training/hours to be a better pilot rather than a passenger with a god button.

Phil

Actually...In grand concept...

I am starting off with the Cassutt 111 tube steel frame...lengthened a bit for my 6'4 self...

Several of the cockpit area tubes will instead of the usual 4130 be of a milder steel, drawn over mandrel...NHRA spec rollcage material...these will be welded together into a tightly fitting Top Fuel looking cage...inside it will riveted aluminium sheet making a rectangular box...into this box will go the bead foam material...form fitted around me..,making the cockpit a whole-body helmet...once I have proper drawings of the safety systens...

I will post them...now the rest of the design...the stuff that makes it faaaaaasssst....folks are gonna have to buy!

Now for your example...the glass fuselage,,,should be carbon & honeycomb...like the aforementioned Dallara...but once you get there...either for the entire fuselage...or an integral safety tub...

Basically you need a volume of structure...incompassing the pilot and passengers...if any...that will not crush around its occupants and protect them from outside items penetrating to them...

The bead foam seat...and proper seat belts...and helmet and HANS...are all the same...

Dave

I use to say the safest way to make a forced landing is to try not hitting any tree or rock coming towards you.
I fully agree with RacerDave in a properly designed aircraft is the best chance to survive, so there goes my two cents.
A folk flew a PA25 under a powerline and tore apart its right wing after hitting a pole. The engine landed 50 yards away, the rest of the aircraft wrecked around but he walked away unscratched. He was spraying a rice crop wich is mostly mud, but the Pawnee 4130 guarded him. His arms and legs beated everything in the cockpit and the dashboard (a rolled Al sheet we used to smack under frustration saved his face).
His helmet saved his head of hitting all the structure around. I read around of 60% of fatal injuries are related to a head strike. For those wearing bike helmets be aware that they are not designed to guard the back of your neck as an aircraft designed would.
Collapsable structure is a must. For composites or wooden aircrafts a kevlar tub is also, and again I agree with dave in the good that a poured foam seat can do. I really wished we had something like that. Crop dusting aircrafts are pretty well designed, but I wished this stuff.

Workhorse...if you are still doing the agricultural work... I am sure that you could get help with the bead foam seats in Spain...any team in Formula 3 will be very familiar with this technology...

It is much better to actually watch someone do one before doing it yourself...but if you want to try...I will be happy to offer whatever long distance advice and photographic help I can come up with...

Dave

I will contact people in Formula 3 and see. I wished we had these in AG because the worst injuries I've seen in accidents have been related to spinal damage, (not in Piper's). I may drop crop dusting for several reasons but still all this subject is interesting for my project.

Thank you very much for your kind offer Dave.

Originally Posted by Workhorse

I will contact people in Formula 3 and see. I wished we had these in AG because the worst injuries I've seen in accidents have been related to spinal damage, (not in Piper's). I may drop crop dusting for several reasons but still all this subject is interesting for my project.

Thank you very much for your kind offer Dave.

No worries... hopefully there is a Formula car team close to you... also...

Most Endurance Sports Car teams would be of help as well...even if they have a semi-conventional seat...most use bead foam inserts for their shorter drivers...if one of them is closer to you...

Though as a North American racer...I don't think you could make a road trip in Europe that I would call a long one...

Drive from Asheville North Carolina USA to Edmonton Alberta Canada...now that's a road trip...3700KM! one way


Dave