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Thread: S-51

  1. #1
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    S-51

    just registered , but have been browsing for a few months. i'm dead set on building a p-51 replica. but there's a problem!

    i started with the midget mustang idea. After looking at prices of a midtime 0-200, I'd rather use a 400-500+ hp auto engine. v8, probably chevy (havent found a reduction drive for ford yet). this would mean a much bigger plane. not only would i be able to break 200 mph cruise, but it would give me a two place plane with dual controls.



    beautiful! The S-51 is basically perfect, if the man who designed it didn't sell the plans. I don't think the company that owns the rights now is doing anything with them.

    I know there are wood kits out there, but they have a 125 mph cruise, plus i want to stick with an all metal construction.

    If anybody knows how to get plans to this plane through this company, Precision Aero Engineering, or from somebody who bought plans before the rights were sold please let me know. Or if there is another WWII era fighter in ~3/4 scale that would fit my ideas with the auto engine..

  2. #2
    Registered User sonex293's Avatar
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    Titan T-51?

    So is the Titan T-51 out of the running?

    http://www.titanaircraft.com/files/T..._e_on-line.pdf



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    Michael

  3. #3
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    i think the titan is kit only. looking for scratch built.

  4. #4
    org
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    Originally posted by damian
    i think the titan is kit only. looking for scratch built.
    So is the S-51, but it's not in production. The Titan is the only all metal Mustang replica, and the FEW is composite.

    The SAL and Jurca aircraft are plans built, but wood.

    Olen
    http://home.comcast.net/~ogoodwin/Mustang.html

  5. #5
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    ahh so the "plans" for the s-51 are just assembly instructions... those are offered online already. thought it was scratch built..

    dilemma.

  6. #6
    Registered User CriCriOz's Avatar
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    How about the Premier warbird?? the Spitfire



    Made In OZ. using jabiru 8 cylinder engines.

    http://www.supermarineaircraft.com/About.htm

    all metal kit, only the usual repqired to finish it, engine prop instruments.

    All metal. as for plans built im not sure, but sending them off an email might help.
    Last edited by CriCriOz; August 30th, 2006 at 04:01 AM.
    Always treat your kite like you woman....
    Enter her 5 times a day and take her to heaven and back!

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    Hello Damien, also new; just joined now. I am building a SAL 2/3 Mustang but was very interested in the S-51 last year. Here is why I chose the SAL (taken from something that I will post on my website when I get it going):

    I then started trying to find plans to build from. I looked at the S-51 (Stewart), the Marcel-Jurca and the SAL by Falconar. I sent mails to various people involved with all of these. The S-51 is an all aluminium aircraft and there seem to be one or two kits about and maybe plans- I had been in contact with one person in the US for around 6-8 months to get copies of the plans, but with no joy; I imagine that getting me copies of the plans is not a priority for him; no bad feelings on my side, I understand this.

    The Marcel-Jurca site seemed to have died- you get no response from the French site, and since I do not speak french it may not have been very useful in any case- I posted a question there once and it took several months before a response was recieved and it was not at all useful. The english speaking representative for M-J is in the US and I received 1 or 2 responses and then he disappeared. I got a friend of mine in the US to call and found out that he was very ill- later he died.

    Chris Falconar from Falcon Aravia in Canada provided me with the best responses - he is pretty good with email but you need to call and follow up as well -see the website (http://www.falconaravia.com/). I ordered plans from him and received them towards the end of 2005 with a fairly good turn around time. I contacted a guy (Bev Hall) who had built one of these mustangs here in South Africa, some years ago and he mailed me to tell me that he was thoroughly satisfied with the aircraft and recommended it there is a copy of the review of the aircraft by him posted here. I am going to build the SAL Mustang simply because it is the only one that I have been able to get plans for- it also seems like a good aircraft as it is fast, but not too fast, and not a desperately 'hot' aircraft that may land me in trouble (still, it is not a pussycat either...)

    Jay
    Don't knock me with them negative waves...

  8. #8
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    I think I'm starting to lean to the Mustang II. Hardly resembles a P-51, but it has good performance specs and all-metal plane from plans.

    www.mustangaero.com
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails S-51-linkis-n13gl-resize.jpg  

  9. #9
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    since the v-8 idea is out the window for an airplane of this size (1000 lb empty weight) I started looking for another auto engine I could convert. The Mustang II spec sheet says that an 0-320 (160 hp) or IO-360 (200 hp) engines could be used. The IO-360 weighs in just under 300 lbs. An all aluminum Ford Duratec 3.0L V6 weighs 360 lbs "fully dressed" (after ridding of smog, power steering, air conditioner compressor, etc and addition of PSRU this weight will stay in the same area) and puts out 210 hp stock. Of course this could be raised using any number ways, to probably 250ish. This way the 200 hp will be made around 4000-4500 rpm instead of 6200. Cruising rpm would be around 3500rpm i suppose, with cruise speed hopefully above 200 mph.

    The mustang II has the option of wing tanks (18 gal. each) and a header tank (that i could live without) that is 25 gallons x 6 lbs per gallon = 150 lbs. The tank is behind engine, so of course the additional weight of the engine has a greater moment arm than the header tank.

    I'm thinking that I could keep the CG in bounds by getting rid of header tank and possibly adding a smaller tank aft of cockpit.

    The only big problem I'm thinking of right now is fitting/building an [untested] PSRU and the amount of wiring from fuel injected motor. But that seems worth the fact that one of these engines can be "airworthy" with a few thousand dollars compared to the costs of aircraft engines. There's one out of a taurus with 40,000 miles (~1000 hrs lol) is on ebay for $750 "buy it now".

    I know that some ideas are foolish and I'd like to live to see 30. If it was so easy it would be done already, but maybe not. All input is welcome.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails S-51-duratec.jpg  

  10. #10
    Registered User Peter V's Avatar
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    Good for you!
    Lots of people will tell you that car engines weren't designed to run at
    high revs for hours on end - there's absolutely no proof that they can't
    and plenty of rally races and production car races running over 5 hours,
    where engines rarely leave the red line, that say they can!
    Plus less noise, vibration, fuel consumption... But,

    as much of a fan I am of flying off behind a V12 Ferrari F1 engine
    (lighter than your Ford engine!) it's a painful exercise to convert an auto
    engine. Your best bet is to find someone that's already done a
    conversion on the same model of engine. Below is a list of auto engine
    weights and dimensions you may find useful:

    http://www.fixrambler.com/art62.html

    Also, I've included a link to a chap's site. He's converted a subaru
    engine and documented what was involved. It seems the worst part is
    the computer. Modern engines can refuse to cooperate if they sense a
    problem with fuel temperature, power steering fluid level or
    transmission status, to name but a few of the systems the ECU
    manages.

    http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages...%20engine.html

    You may be better off with a pre 1998 model or find an engine model
    with after-market ECU compatibility - typically Japanese makes, popular
    with the kids of today, which can be re-tuned on the fly and monitored
    with a laptop, such as the Impreza. The new ECU will ignore diagnostic
    faults and breaches in engine safe parameter limits

  11. #11
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    Re: S-51

    The rights to the Stewart 51 were recovered from Precision Aero Engineering in July of 2007. This was in settlement of a lawsuit for beach of the contract with Stewart51 and Florida Airboat Power. The rights. prototype, parts inventory and all the tooling PAE had are presently in the hands of a group headed by 2 Stewart builders. I don't think the present owners plan to put the kit back into production themselves, but they might make the rights available to someone with the resources and interest to do so. The PSRU would probably go back into production first since there are some S51 builders that still need it.

    Jim Stewart did sell plans for a brief period before the kit was available. The plans version differs from the kit version in some respects. For example, the plans fuselage is too narrow for a big block engine. A small block will work though. You might be able to find someone with a set and/or a partially completed plans project that would sell. The present builders group and the kit fabricator in the Czech Republic have in the past supported plans builders with plans and parts, but these are for the kit version. Complete sets of plans are not available though.

  12. #12
    Registered User SIIaCanuck's Avatar
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    Re: S-51

    Don't get too set against wood. The Mosquito was wood and few Luftwaffe fighters could catch it. The DH Hornett was wood too and it out-ran early jets! Some state that it was the fastest twin engine piston fighter ever built. Averaging over 400mph from Singapore to Hong Kong was one feat.

    From my research, the SAL is the best supported set of plans out there. Proven wood construction and a Vne of 258mph. However, nobody can tell us (me and other SAL builders) how that was determined. I'm planning to do a structural and flutter analysis to see if I can raise the dive speed to 300mph. Maybe not, but worth investigating.

    Auto engines are not always cheaper than aero. However, as you progress past 200+ hp, the gap widens. As for EFI, I wouldn't go anywhere else. Carbs and old ignition systems are too complicated and unreliable to put into the air when solid state electronics with a secondary redundancy system and limp home modes are available, easy to use and cheap.

    The EEC system on Ford V-8s is famous for being almost foolproof and capable of dealing with changing conditions/modifications with relative ease. Many aftermarket systems are just as good or better.

    Anyway, hope you find what you're looking for. I think you should stick with a "real" Mustang and not a Midget Mustang etc. If you can find S-51 plans great, but make sure you give Falconair Avia a call. The SAL may be your medicine after all.

    Stew

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    Re: Jurca P-51D (scratch built)

    Hello there Guys, I too just registered, but have been building aircraft and aircraft parts now for 40 some years now. With my health now grounding me with pancriatise, and the death of my wife a few years ago, I've lost the ablity to afford my project now. My medical bills are killing me. Sorry I don't have any pics here yet but they'r coming. Just need to figure on how to get them on this site. Remember I'm an old school A/C builder, not a computer wizzzzz.

    What I have for sale is a 3/4 Scale Jurca P-51 Mustang. 2 seater and Ford/ Cheve powered up to 500HP if desired.
    Its about 50% complete from the firewall to the tailfeathers. The main wingspar is built and signed off, as cleared to cover. The mains are from a Cessna 310B with the tailwheel from a Stearman. I have loads of other stuff for this project. I'm asking $18600. for the whole shebang. If your interested or know of anyone interested contact me at: wes200090@yahoo.com or call me at 302-351-8488 ET. OK?

    Yours in flight

    WES

  14. #14
    Registered User SIIaCanuck's Avatar
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    Re: S-51

    Further research has revealed that the SAL wing was designed to a structural limit of 300mph and the rest of the airframe 275mph. The Vne has been set at 258 to give a safety buffer but the prototype was test flown to 275mph.

    Stew

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