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Thread: Aerobatic homebuilt, where to start?

  1. #31
    Registered User Pops's Avatar
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    Re: Aerobatic homebuilt, where to start?

    I ground looped a Smith back in about 1972, no damage. The landing gear was out of alignment. My instructor flew a Pitts in competition and he ground looped the Smith and totaled it. The Smith has a very small cockpit for most people. I would spend my time and money toward a Pitts instead of a Smith.

    Quote Originally Posted by djschwartz View Post
    FWIW: just had a chat with a friend who has flown many types including the Smith Miniplane and the Pitts. He likes the Smith. It's not in the same league as the Pitts but is a good flying plane that flies well on less power than a Pitts. The biggetst issue for you would be your height. The Smith is smaller than the Pitts in every way, including cockpit size.
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    Re: Aerobatic homebuilt, where to start?

    RANS S-10 Sakota. S-10 Sakota Aircraft Kit



    Build time is reportedly around 600 hrs, power from Rotax 582 (65hp) to 912 (100hp). Over 200 delivered, many in Europe. Limit loads are +6/-3 solo. Google 'Cesar Falistocco Airshow' to see what the plane is capable of (RANS will tell you the planes are being flown outside the envelope, but are not specific). Lightweight, reasonably strong, affordable to build and operate, and VERY capable - should be fairly easy to build and license.

    FWIW, this plane has moved to the top of my list.

  3. #33
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    Re: Aerobatic homebuilt, where to start?

    "Milk cures wing dope poisoning."

    Flying and Glider Manual

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    Re: Aerobatic homebuilt, where to start?

    Quote Originally Posted by jlknolla View Post
    RANS S-10 Sakota. S-10 Sakota Aircraft Kit
    FWIW, this plane has moved to the top of my list.
    Just curious why not the Rans S-9?

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    Re: Aerobatic homebuilt, where to start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Autodidact View Post
    The only all wood aerobat I know of is the Piel CP.90 Pinochio:
    The Corby Starlet mentioned in the OP's original list is all wood and designed for basic aerobatics. John Corby designed the airplane for "one design" competition in Australia. At the time, one could be built for ~$6k, they were closely held to spec and then it was all about the competitor and not the competitor's wallet.
    A great idea, and that was the idea behind Dan Rihn's one design which started out as a simple aerobatic airplane with a snowcone airfoil to prevent speed built up going downhill and a relatively inexpensive Lycoming 0-235. Look what happened with that, lol.

  6. #36
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    Re: Aerobatic homebuilt, where to start?

    Flying aerobatics and flying competition are two different things. You can have a bunch of fun with any airplane that will stay together, but competition is like racing, the best will win most from the less than the other way around. A great pilot will make something like a Smith Miniplane look great in the air and will be a crowd favorite to watch, but when you are going to be up against planes that are easier to get the job done with, you will be behind if you are an equal pilot. Except the One Design, I would skip the rest of your list, and I like many of those airplanes. If on a budget, a One Design, Laser 200, Pitts S1S, maybe something else. All can be made from plans. The Pitts would be the easiest to make; more wings but easy wings. The parts are small good for a small garage. Judges like monoplanes as they are easier to see deviations in direction than a stubby biplane; something to think about. Remember it is competition not just if you can pull off a loop. A lot of time will go into it so by the time its done you want what you really need.

  7. #37
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    Re: Aerobatic homebuilt, where to start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
    Just curious why not the Rans S-9?
    For myself, I want the 2nd seat for Wifey, Daughter, friends and the occasional Young Eagle flight - for the OP the S-9 Chaos would be a good alternative.

    With respect to the discussion about competition, all things being equal the guy/gal who has put the most fuel through a motor will have the edge, so a plane that can be bought or built inexpensively, and then burns half the fuel of a higher powered plane, will provide significantly more training time and that ultimately makes for a better pilot. Aerobatics in terms of skill but also in terms of equipment, is iterative - we buld from basic to more advanced, then more and so on. Very, very few of us have the financial wherewithal to start with an Extra 330SC, Panzl or MX2 - and none of us should - if we want to learn how to really fly well and precisely we need to work for it - and for all but the most extremely gifted, it will take years of training, coaching and competition to get to Intermediate which is where equipment even starts to be important (IMO) - so a simple Pitts, AcroSport, or RANS S-9/S-10 would be a good original mount for most pilots for many, many years.

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    Re: Aerobatic homebuilt, where to start?

    Quote Originally Posted by djschwartz View Post
    FWIW: just had a chat with a friend who has flown many types including the Smith Miniplane and the Pitts. He likes the Smith. It's not in the same league as the Pitts but is a good flying plane that flies well on less power than a Pitts. The biggetst issue for you would be your height. The Smith is smaller than the Pitts in every way, including cockpit size.
    Thanks! biplane have developed the Smith mini 2000 which is supposed to be able to accommodate larger pilots. I would like to find out more about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hot Wings View Post
    One example is the Tipsy Nipper.
    The Tipsy Nipper is interesting but does it do anything more than basic arobatics? Are there ways to upgrade it?

    Quote Originally Posted by jlknolla View Post
    RANS S-10 Sakota. S-10 Sakota Aircraft Kit



    Build time is reportedly around 600 hrs, power from Rotax 582 (65hp) to 912 (100hp). Over 200 delivered, many in Europe. Limit loads are +6/-3 solo. Google 'Cesar Falistocco Airshow' to see what the plane is capable of (RANS will tell you the planes are being flown outside the envelope, but are not specific). Lightweight, reasonably strong, affordable to build and operate, and VERY capable - should be fairly easy to build and license.

    FWIW, this plane has moved to the top of my list.
    The RANS 9 and 10 are interesting but I am a bit discouraged by the fact that it's a proper kit which means a relatively big chunk sum to pay. It suits me better to be able to buy material continuously as my project progresses. Do you know if the RANS can be built from plans?

    Nice aircraft but it is a 24ft one peice wing, right? I would not be able to fit that in my workshop (garage).

    Quote Originally Posted by TFF View Post
    Flying aerobatics and flying competition are two different things. You can have a bunch of fun with any airplane that will stay together, but competition is like racing, the best will win most from the less than the other way around. A great pilot will make something like a Smith Miniplane look great in the air and will be a crowd favorite to watch, but when you are going to be up against planes that are easier to get the job done with, you will be behind if you are an equal pilot. Except the One Design, I would skip the rest of your list, and I like many of those airplanes. If on a budget, a One Design, Laser 200, Pitts S1S, maybe something else. All can be made from plans. The Pitts would be the easiest to make; more wings but easy wings. The parts are small good for a small garage. Judges like monoplanes as they are easier to see deviations in direction than a stubby biplane; something to think about. Remember it is competition not just if you can pull off a loop. A lot of time will go into it so by the time its done you want what you really need.
    Thanks, sounds like very good advice.

  9. #39
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    Re: Aerobatic homebuilt, where to start?

    There is always the Meyer Little Toot, although have no idea about the cockpit size. It is only 16' 6" long.

  10. #40
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    Re: Aerobatic homebuilt, where to start?

    Martenare,

    The RANS planes are kits and are not plans-built. I know the builder can break it up into smaller purchases but shipping becomes an issue.

    For a purely plans-built the S1 Pitts, Skybolt and One Design are still probably your best bet. FWIW, the S-10 airframe kit is around $16K, with maybe another $8K FWF with a 582 or 670 Rotax - it is actually cheaper to buy a flying example, there are half-a-dozen S-9's and S-10's in Barnstormers right now, $10-18K.

  11. #41
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    Re: Aerobatic homebuilt, where to start?

    Cassutt with recline seat is something to consider too. Plans build small racer with great G load limit. If modified for symmerical airfoil, it will be good acro plane. I am 174 cm (pygmy)

    Mine is here: CASSUTT RACER OWNERS FORUM • View topic - Finnish Cassutt
    Mantra´s like: " it is too difficult" or "it is impossible" is true only for those people who use it...

  12. #42
    Registered User jlknolla's Avatar
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    Re: Aerobatic homebuilt, where to start?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4trade View Post
    Cassutt with recline seat is something to consider too. Plans build small racer with great G load limit. If modified for symmerical airfoil, it will be good acro plane. I am 174 cm (pygmy)

    Mine is here: CASSUTT RACER OWNERS FORUM • View topic - Finnish Cassutt
    4trade, your Cassutt looks like a great project - we have a Cassutt IIIM racer at my EAA field - apparently a bit scary even for an experienced Cassutt driver. Your mods look well thought out - should be a great plane!

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    Re: Aerobatic homebuilt, where to start?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4trade View Post
    Cassutt with recline seat is something to consider too. Plans build small racer with great G load limit. If modified for symmerical airfoil, it will be good acro plane. I am 174 cm (pygmy)

    Mine is here: CASSUTT RACER OWNERS FORUM • View topic - Finnish Cassutt
    It's a cool little plane but It looks like a tight squeeze for you and I am 14cm taller so it might be too small. Very interesting reading and pics at the forum though! How is the progress with it?

  14. #44
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    Re: Aerobatic homebuilt, where to start?

    4trade, your Cassutt looks like a great project - we have a Cassutt IIIM racer at my EAA field - apparently a bit scary even for an experienced Cassutt driver. Your mods look well thought out - should be a great plane!
    I will turbochaged O 200 for this plane. Nothing beats power, and small plane like that with 130 hp should give reasonable power/ weight ratio.


    Quote Originally Posted by martenare View Post
    It's a cool little plane but It looks like a tight squeeze for you and I am 14cm taller so it might be too small. Very interesting reading and pics at the forum though! How is the progress with it?
    Building start slowly again. There was almost a year period, when nothing happen because i was just too busy. I was building my friend race car and work, so time was extremely limited. One of my friend own Sonerai 1, and he is 185 cm tall. These planes are pretty much same size. Doable, but cramped for tall guys like you. Basic acro should be fine without wing modification too:


    Cassutt Low - YouTube
    Mantra´s like: " it is too difficult" or "it is impossible" is true only for those people who use it...

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    Re: Aerobatic homebuilt, where to start?

    I wish these small monoplanes came as all wood aircraft! If the Corby Starlet would have been a sturdier design I think the choice would have been simple for me. I don't like the fact that it semi aerobatic with a load limit of only 4,5. If I am going to compete it needs to be fully aerobatic with a limit of at least 6g.
    Are there any simple well established modifications out there to beef up the Strarlet?

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