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Thread: What is the "best" auto engine for aircraft use in the 250-350 HP range?

  1. #16
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    Re: What is the "best" auto engine for aircraft use in the 250-350 HP range?

    I don't like to squash another persons idea but I will ask you why you want to start with a heavy diesel engine designed for a car?
    The challenges will be:
    1. weight - signifigant amounts of weight (case, connecting rods, pistons, and cylinder heads)
    2. thrust - most auto engines have a very small thrust surface that wears even with the small amount of thrust from a throw-out bearing with a clutch.
    3. Additional accessories for cooling and reliable oiling.
    4. A cam design that is profiled for the 2500 - 3000 rpm range instead of 4000+ range.

    Adding a plate between the block and head will lower the compression but it will also eliminate any quench area that prevents detonation requiring a very low compression. This "space" is also bad for efficiency because it isn't swept and never gets the exhaust completely evacuated. That means it will dilute the incoming air/fuel charge, making less power.

    You need a large diameter crank (3") for torque rigidity that is hollowed for weight reduction with very large thust surfaces or area at the ends for thrust bearings rather an using thrust washers. It must also have wider journals for wear resistance with positive, full time lubrication at both the main and rod bearings. Cooling oil to the piston tops and full pressure lubrication to the piston pins, cam bearings, lobes, rockers and lifters. While auto engines get full pressure lube to cam bearings the rest is left to intermittent or splash oiling.
    This is all in consideration of a low RPM (3000 max RPM) engine made for direct drive of the prop from the crank. My opinion is that you need something close to two cubic inches per HP for reliability as well as the mods I listed above.

    Paul

  2. #17
    Registered User hogheadv2's Avatar
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    Re: What is the "best" auto engine for aircraft use in the 250-350 HP range?

    With the most mild aluminum heads, and low rpm turbo cam.... talk to the cam grinder. In the short and long run new and light is the way to go.
    RPM X TQ / 5252 = HORSE POWER, ..............[3000rpm X 600tq / 5252 = 342 Hp ] Your looking for someting that can live at 70% power for 1000 + hours.
    Around $10,000...... Common parts easy rebuild.

    http://www.worldcastings.com/products/merlin-x-aluminum-block.html

  3. #18
    Registered User WonderousMountain's Avatar
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    Re: What is the "best" auto engine for aircraft use in the 250-350 HP range?

    Boxer engine weight is an old thread here with some Subaru related info. Nowhere could I find a weight, but the engine series is designated EJ22 in your picture but is now being replaced with a similar EE20 engine. It's DOHC direct inject twin turbo. They have good performance record in rugged areas of the states, with audible signals before most failures. My friend has one he's been driving for 10,000 miles with horrid sound. A plate has worked before on other engines, and scavaging in 4 valve is better than almost any 2. Although I don't see the point, why not leave it a diesel? Wouldn't best performance come from remapping the injection for Aero-loads and leaving many systems stock? It's almost never a crank that breaks, always some other part gets finicky and people choose to drive them into the ground rather than paying for the $1200 repairs for a $1700 car. It's just bad economics. Never heard of one just stop, but the complicated computer injection probably does that too from time to time. Best alteration to modern engines possible is move ignition coils away from engine radiant heat.

  4. #19
    Registered User hogheadv2's Avatar
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    Re: What is the "best" auto engine for aircraft use in the 250-350 HP range?

    Diesel would have to be made to order to pull the numbers he is asking, the un-earthly mersadies is the only light and strong enough that I've heard stiring of.
    V-8 to V-12 550 to 670 hp at 6000+ rpm all come with turbo, 1 with twin turbo..... Probly dive into that mess $70000 to 100'000..... Team of people to hook**** up for you, Priceless.

  5. #20
    Registered User rheuschele's Avatar
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    Re: What is the "best" auto engine for aircraft use in the 250-350 HP range?

    I've asked it before, and I got one answer "too heavy" but I'll ask again. Is this the only reason not
    to use the Dodge Hemi? The only reason I ask is because I have one in my car and can't believe how
    powerful it is.
    Ron

  6. #21
    Registered User hogheadv2's Avatar
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    Re: What is the "best" auto engine for aircraft use in the 250-350 HP range?

    New or old, Old was called the Elephant for a reason..... New, 300 aircraft rated HP is sustained all day power. Auto HP is for a moment, do you think your hemi would live at 70% of max power for hours on end......? 50% is a more likely area to be, best hemi is 400hp at sea level 260hp at 12000ft, x .5 = 130 realistic hp.... Even if you turbo your still in the 200+ zone for all day power.
    What numbers does it make at 1/2 red line...40%- 60% of the above... with speed reduction still way short on power.....
    Go huge or stay low!

  7. #22
    Registered User delta's Avatar
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    Re: What is the "best" auto engine for aircraft use in the 250-350 HP range?

    I have an aluminum dohc v-8 out of a Lexus I thought would be a good starting point for me. I'm hoping there will be some breakthroughs in the reduction department. I heard recently of a magnetic reduction being produced in the UK, but nothing is available from them yet that's light enough. There's some good looking Ls-1 packages flying around but like most things, time will tell.

    Rick

  8. #23
    Registered User hogheadv2's Avatar
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    Re: What is the "best" auto engine for aircraft use in the 250-350 HP range?

    delta, Dimes to dollars with the complex FI / Ign of the lexus it may not be user friendly.... Aftermarket loves Detroit 3, little toyo's and scream'n honda's.
    Is it possible to run the motor .... stand alone, without the car and total package?

    BTW, IMHO most cases auto engines are less than desirable for aircraft.... All aluminum, very high performance block/crank, aftermarket..not oem, package designed for huge tq at very low rpm.... FACTORY / OEM AUTO ENGINES ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO FLY. Power for weight is not there.

  9. #24
    Registered User stol's Avatar
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    Re: What is the "best" auto engine for aircraft use in the 250-350 HP range?

    xxxx
    Last edited by stol; May 5th, 2012 at 12:45 PM.

  10. #25
    Registered User Jan Carlsson's Avatar
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    Re: What is the "best" auto engine for aircraft use in the 250-350 HP range?

    What about this diesel? Oh it is Italian! CMD Costruzione Motori Diesel
    Jan.

    “A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
    "Flight by machines heavier than air is unpractical and insignificant, if not utterly impossible." Simon Newcomb, 1902

  11. #26
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    Re: What is the "best" auto engine for aircraft use in the 250-350 HP range?

    “What about this diesel? Oh it is Italian! “

    It's funny how few people knows the truth about Italian engines.
    Common rail was invented by the Fiat engineers and sold to Bosch. These days, nearly all new diesel engines uses this common rail injection system.
    Today, their interests lies somewhere else. Diesel is previous century technology, let's prepare the future!
    Here are the first of a new generation petrol engines.
    1400cc and 1750cc displacement -
    max. torque below 1800 rpm. - 135/ 200 HP - (5000 rpm)
    And last but not least, all Alfa Romeo Petrol engines have 2 sparks per cylinder.
    A bummer is that Fiat is not on the US market.

    For a bit of real power, there is the 3,2 liter V6 turbo version. The engine fits under the hood of a front wheel driven 2 seat car. 400HP at 6000 rpm
    and 680Nm torque at 2000 rpm

    Enjoy.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What is the "best" auto engine for aircraft use in the 250-350 HP range?-alfa1750turbo.jpg   What is the "best" auto engine for aircraft use in the 250-350 HP range?-alfa-turboeng.jpg   What is the "best" auto engine for aircraft use in the 250-350 HP range?-bit-alfapower3.2l.jpg  


  12. #27
    Registered User Jan Carlsson's Avatar
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    Re: What is the "best" auto engine for aircraft use in the 250-350 HP range?

    There was Common rail diesels mid 1910, nothing new, whats new is the computer control of the common rail injectors.
    I had a Alfa Romeo ones, very nice engine, high torque, but the drilled oil canals in the crank should have had welded or screwed end plugs, instead of the coonical alu plugs. On the other hand the oil sump was possible to take down without lifting the engine out of the car. but not so fun at minus-20C, the cars rust very good too.

    The twin spark would make a good airplane engine, but i never seen or heard of one! anybody?
    Jan.

    “A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
    "Flight by machines heavier than air is unpractical and insignificant, if not utterly impossible." Simon Newcomb, 1902

  13. #28
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    Re: What is the "best" auto engine for aircraft use in the 250-350 HP range?

    Quote Originally Posted by stol View Post
    Interesting.................... What do you think about the LS series of engines converted for aircraft use? Not worthy ?

    Ben.
    "LS converted for aircraft" All aluminum, very high perfomance.... The computer would be mapped for maximum tq at lower rpm.... Everything I said a auto type engine should be.
    When you get to this engine I do not see a major cost savings.

    That said, I plan to fly with a V-twin engine. Air cooled and fantastic tq and fuel per hour.

  14. #29
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    Re: What is the "best" auto engine for aircraft use in the 250-350 HP range?

    Walter M601.

    Sorry it's not the answer to the question you asked, but it's the correct answer. It would be awesome for your application!
    I'm not sure I'd like to have that much weight behind me in the event of a hard landing.....just saying. LOL That said, I'm planning on using a M601 or a GE H80 in my design.

    Regarding the Walters, a complete high time but useful engine can be found for as little as about $35k.
    Orion, I'd like to hug you man. You made my freaking week.

    There was a VK-30 built with a Walter.
    Yeah, the VK-30....there's a design to copy.

  15. #30
    Registered User stol's Avatar
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    Re: What is the "best" auto engine for aircraft use in the 250-350 HP range?

    xxxx
    Last edited by stol; May 5th, 2012 at 12:45 PM.

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