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Thread: DIESEL ROTARY PISTON ENGINE

  1. #1
    Registered User Blackhawk's Avatar
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    DIESEL ROTARY PISTON ENGINE

    In late 2009 we will begin production of three different size, High Torque Multi-fuel Radial Piston engines which will be Air-cooled and Fuel Injected.

    There are very few engine choices in the 65HP to 120HP range at the moment and Diesel engines in particular, are virtually non existent for Recreational Aviation use.

    We have Patents for the engines already in place for some countries with more to be submitted in early 2009 to give us full world wide protection.

    Below are the specifications for the three engine designs (all Diesel, but can be configured to run on UL petrol at slightly less HP). They will have inbuilt gear ratios and drive configurations. All engines have a maximum 3000rpm and are designed to have the following drive options;

    (1) Direct drive (for fixed wing and Gyro's) for all three capacity engines
    (2) Direct drive with counter rotating shafts (for helicopters, fixed wing and Gyro's) for all three capacity engines.
    (3) Direct drive with 500rpm on front output of engine and 3000rpm on the rear (for Helicopters only) for the 1600cc and 2000cc engines.

    The specifications are as follows;

    CAPICITY ............HORSEPOWER.............. DIAMETER ............WEIGHT
    1200cc .....................70HP ............................510mm ................<50kg
    1600cc .....................95HP ............................610mm ................<65kg
    2000cc .....................120HP ..........................710mm .................<80kg

    Production cost estimates put these engines at around 15 to 20&#37; less than currently available petrol engines (Rotax in particular) of similar horsepower and considering a diesel has 26% more power than a petrol engine of the same displacement, this makes our Radial Piston Diesel a very viable alternative.

    We are looking for 'serious' comments from members regarding these engines. We will be relying on your feedback so that we can determine the viability for us to proceed with the production and general consensus that they will be readily accepted throughout the aviation community.

    I have attached a photo of the Petrol version proof of concept prototype engine.

    Looking forward to your comments.

    Regards
    Graeme
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DIESEL ROTARY PISTON ENGINE-noreaster-radial-engine-1.jpg  
    Last edited by Blackhawk; January 22nd, 2009 at 11:04 PM.
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    Moderator addaon's Avatar
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    Re: DIESEL ROTARY PISTON ENGINE

    What do you mean by this?
    a diesel has the same power as a petrol engine approximately 26&#37; more in horsepower
    What is your production schedule? What's your current status? Which variants have prototypes running? How many test hours are you at? How many test hours do you plan to have before selling products?

    What compression ratios are you getting? Are you somehow adjusting compression for different fuels? What fuels do you support? Just diesel and jet-A, or a wider variety?

    What's the plan for a starter/generator? Starting a diesel takes a bit of power... what size battery are you recommending for normal / extended temperature range starting?

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    Registered User PTAirco's Avatar
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    Re: DIESEL ROTARY PISTON ENGINE

    I assume that is "radial" ? Or really a rotary? Looking at all the sparkplugs, I think you mean radial, or...? Do you have some more drawings photos photos you can share? What kind of injection system is used for the Diesel? Unit pumps, distributor pumps, common rail? How do you deal with switching to different fuels?
    I assume these are two-stroke, judging by the eight cylinders?
    "Aeronautical engineering is highly educated guessing, worked out to five decimal places. Fred Lindsley, Airspeed."

  4. #4
    Moderator addaon's Avatar
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    Re: DIESEL ROTARY PISTON ENGINE

    If it's a diesel, I'm hoping those aren't spark plugs... I assumed glow plugs for starting, but perhaps Graeme will explain.

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    Registered User Blackhawk's Avatar
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    Re: DIESEL ROTARY PISTON ENGINE

    In the intro I said ;

    "High Torque Multi-fuel Rotary Piston engines". Multi-fuel meaning, the engine will run on any fuel when configured for that fuel.

    "Rotary", this term was used so as not to confuse people, as the engine doesn't have a crank shaft, the pistons are cam driven

    The engine can be build as a 2 or 4 stroke.

    It is common rail EFI.

    Graeme

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    Moderator Dana's Avatar
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    Re: DIESEL ROTARY PISTON ENGINE

    Quote Originally Posted by addaon View Post
    What do you mean by this?
    "a diesel has the same power as a petrol engine approximately 26% more in horsepower"
    It means he's either ignorant of basic physics, or trying to mislead customers, or (let's give him the benefit of the doubt) just a typo.


    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk View Post
    In the intro I said ;
    "Rotary", this term was used so as not to confuse people, as the engine doesn't have a crank shaft, the pistons are cam driven
    That's even more confusing: "Rotary" means either rotary piston, as in the Wankel engine, or "rotary" as in early aircraft engines, where the pistons and crankcase rotated around a fixed crankshaft. This sounds more like the Rad-Cam engine, which also promised great things but seems to have had no progress in the last five years.

    -Dana

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  7. #7
    Moderator addaon's Avatar
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    Re: DIESEL ROTARY PISTON ENGINE

    I think we can all afford to give the benefit of the doubt until the questions raised in the second post are answered... although I am enough of a cynic to assume they won't be.

  8. #8
    Registered User PTAirco's Avatar
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    Re: DIESEL ROTARY PISTON ENGINE

    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    It means he's either ignorant of basic physics, or trying to mislead customers, or (let's give him the benefit of the doubt) just a typo.



    That's even more confusing: "Rotary" means either rotary piston, as in the Wankel engine, or "rotary" as in early aircraft engines, where the pistons and crankcase rotated around a fixed crankshaft. This sounds more like the Rad-Cam engine, which also promised great things but seems to have had no progress in the last five years.

    Cam driven engines seem to make an appearance every once in a while. If there is a way to make them deal with the enormous loads on the cam surface they would offer a far superior solution to the crank engine. Trouble is usually they use some form of roller moving over the cam and this produces nothing but a thin line of contact. In theory infinitely thin and thus producing an infinite load on the cam surface; in practice of course, the cam surface deforms under the roller until it can support the load. Eventually the surface can't take this treatment any more and breaks down. If they figured out a way to make it last, I'd love to see it one.
    The two stroke has a big advantage here, since it doesn't see the constant load reversals.
    Here are couple of earlier examples and the current Revtec engine: (click on the third picture to see an animation.)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DIESEL ROTARY PISTON ENGINE-copy-marchetti-big.jpg   DIESEL ROTARY PISTON ENGINE-revertch.jpg   DIESEL ROTARY PISTON ENGINE-caminez7-anim.gif  

    DIESEL ROTARY PISTON ENGINE-caminez-1a.jpg  
    "Aeronautical engineering is highly educated guessing, worked out to five decimal places. Fred Lindsley, Airspeed."

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    Moderator Topaz's Avatar
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    Re: DIESEL ROTARY PISTON ENGINE

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk View Post
    ...We are looking for 'serious' comments from members regarding these engines. We will be relying on your feedback so that we can determine the viability for us to proceed with the production and general consensus that they will be readily accepted throughout the aviation community....
    I think a more detailed technical description would be in order before any of us could provide you with the type of feedback you'd like. As it stands, the details of this engine are rather confusing, as is some of the non-standard terminology you've been using.

    It sounds like you're trying to do a market survey here, but you've left it so open-ended that you're not going to get any useful information out of the exercise. Perhaps narrowing your questions down to a more specific focus would give you a better understanding of your opportunities, and your potential investors more comfort in backing your company.
    "If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them." - Henry James Thoreau
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    Registered User bmcj's Avatar
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    Re: DIESEL ROTARY PISTON ENGINE

    Quote Originally Posted by addaon View Post
    What do you mean by this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk View Post
    a diesel has the same power as a petrol engine approximately 26% more in horsepower

    I'm assuming he meant 26% more power for the same displacement. Based on the syntax (and the use of the word "petrol"), I'm guessing that Graeme (Blackhawk) is not from the U.S.

    Are these assumptions correct Graeme?

    Bruce

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    Super Moderator Midniteoyl's Avatar
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    Re: DIESEL ROTARY PISTON ENGINE

    Quote Originally Posted by bmcj View Post
    I'm assuming he meant 26% more power for the same displacement. Based on the syntax (and the use of the word "petrol"), I'm guessing that Graeme (Blackhawk) is not from the U.S.

    Are these assumptions correct Graeme?

    Bruce
    Location: Australia
    Jim

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  12. #12
    Registered User Blackhawk's Avatar
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    Re: DIESEL ROTARY PISTON ENGINE

    Topaz,

    You are correct in assuming we are doing a market research for the proposed production of these engines.

    We would rather put up with the cynical comments and a bit of confussion regarding terminology than spending the $3,000,000 in production runs for engines that only sell 50 a year.

    I have always found the forum very informative and no matter how harsh the critism of any subject, the final assessments by you all is very much appreciated.

    There won't be any detailed information for a couple of months until the patents are in place world wide.

    And yes, I'm in Australia and I can't find an American dictionary to translate all the information.

    It's very hard to put a name to describe something without creating mass confussion with other products. eg. Rad-Cam.

    Our engine uses a cam to drive the pistons but is completely different to the Rad-Cam.

    Some of you might like to suggest a better terminology for the engines.

    Graeme

  13. #13
    Moderator Topaz's Avatar
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    Re: DIESEL ROTARY PISTON ENGINE

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk View Post
    Topaz,

    You are correct in assuming we are doing a market research for the proposed production of these engines.... There won't be any detailed information for a couple of months until the patents are in place world wide.
    Ah yes. A tough place to be. You can't disclose detailed information until you've got your intellectual property protections in-place, but you need to disclose detailed information in order to get valid feedback. If it's any comfort, you're in a pretty common scenario for development companies.

    If you're going to get any kind of valuable information out of a marketing survey, you should consider framing it more narrowly than "Hey guys, what do you think?" You'll find that the information you get from that kind of question won't be very useful - it doesn't quantify the response in any way that allows you to derive constructive data from the returns. Essentially you'll be getting random uninformed opinions, and that won't sway investors when it comes time to go for funding.

    FWIW, you should consider hiring on a market-research firm to handle this kind of work for you, or at least someone familiar with the design of effective research tools. It's cash out the door, but in the end it can help you bring a lot more cash in the door.
    "If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them." - Henry James Thoreau
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    Registered User bmcj's Avatar
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    Re: DIESEL ROTARY PISTON ENGINE

    Quote Originally Posted by Midniteoyl View Post
    Location: Australia
    Thanks Jim... don't know how I missed that one sitting right under his avatar. DUH!

    Australia seems to be the place for new engine development.

    Bruce

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    Re: DIESEL ROTARY PISTON ENGINE

    THE DOT project

    a New Proposal for a Piston Rotary Engine
    (3-Stroke & 3-Piston Rotary Engine):

    http://www.synison.gr/threee-chidot-absolute-motion.htm

    DIESEL ROTARY PISTON ENGINE-prototype_manifesto_600x600.jpg

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