+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 46

Thread: Don't Dry Start your Engine

  1. #1
    Registered User Lee Schaumberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Northern Wisconsin
    Posts
    224

    Post Don't Dry Start your Engine

    Hello

    Engines require oil to lubricate and cool like the body uses blood to do. About 50% of the wear occurs during start up. Stationary engines have a prelube pump to use Before start up. These engines can run 20,000 hours at full load between overhauls.

    Starting a dry and cold engine causes lots of wear. So what can we do? A prelube system for mobile equipment does exist but planes don't normally do this. 20,000 to 30,000 for a zero time engine that can last 2,000 hours is what it costs. Warmng a cold engine for starting is good for the OH time but what to do about the lack of oil?
    Planes must use lite and trouble free stytems. The system has to be simple and easy to build. With that said here is a system that works.
    A container to store the oil and pressure. Size can be about 2 quarts. The pressure can come from the oil pump just before shut down. Its design can use a compressable device to maximize content and pressure. The engine can be run at max rpm just before shut down for max pressure.
    The container can be made out of carbon fiber. An aluminum container would be too heavy. The mounting bracket could be part of the container.
    The oil and preesure could be gotten from same point that you get oil pressure. If the pilot suspects a low oil level at shut down stop the engine and top off the oil first. Using two more quarts when the engine is down three quarts is not good.
    The source has to be equiped with a switch acuated valve. If it doesn'twork or if you forget nothing will be broken. When using the prelube the oil pressure gauge will confirm operation.
    Knowing this you will need a storage tank, a valve, a switch, an indicator light, and lines to hook it up. After designing details, building, photographing, and running it you can sell plans to the no time home builder.

    Bye and have fun
    Last edited by Lee Schaumberg; October 15th, 2008 at 01:54 PM. Reason: To prevent loss of post
    Terribly Honest and Prompt
    Speak Softly and Build Nicely
    Remember if it doesn't go chrome it
    Up Up and Away

  2. #2
    Super Moderator Midniteoyl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    1,674

    Re: Don't Dry Start your Engine

    OIL ACCUMULATOR

    Canton Accusump Oil Accumulator

    Moroso Oil Accumulator

    Incorporate a valve to 'trap' the oil. Open valve to pre-lube engine just prior to starting.
    Jim

    ------------------------------------------------
    Express 2000FT (hopeful - Again)

  3. #3
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    near San Diego
    Posts
    207

    Re: Don't Dry Start your Engine

    Same principle, different situation.

    The other day I was preparing to start my lawn mower by pushing on the rubber fuel 'button' to pump in fuel to prime the carb. It came to mind that if I had another little rubber push button to 'prime' the engine with oil before starting I bet wear would be greatly reduced (especially with how long my lawn mower sits in between uses, I hate mowing the lawn).

    As brief as it is, I've always hated that sound my car engine makes immediately after startup when the oil is still making it's way to 'dry' areas, and thats with the oil topped off. If I had a way to prime the engine with oil before starting I would use it but realistically the cost and installation of that system will probably keep that from ever happening.


    Mike

  4. #4
    Registered User Lee Schaumberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Northern Wisconsin
    Posts
    224

    Re: Don't Dry Start your Engine

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Armstrong View Post
    Same principle, different situation.

    The other day I was preparing to start my lawn mower by pushing on the rubber fuel 'button' to pump in fuel to prime the carb. It came to mind that if I had another little rubber push button to 'prime' the engine with oil before starting I bet wear would be greatly reduced (especially with how long my lawn mower sits in between uses, I hate mowing the lawn).

    As brief as it is, I've always hated that sound my car engine makes immediately after startup when the oil is still making it's way to 'dry' areas, and thats with the oil topped off. If I had a way to prime the engine with oil before starting I would use it but realistically the cost and installation of that system will probably keep that from ever happening.


    Mike
    Hello Mike

    Keep your mower some place warm. You're right the cost of the prelube could be more than the cost of your mower.
    Terribly Honest and Prompt
    Speak Softly and Build Nicely
    Remember if it doesn't go chrome it
    Up Up and Away

  5. #5
    Super Moderator Midniteoyl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    1,674

    Re: Don't Dry Start your Engine

    Using two more quarts when the engine is down three quarts is not good.
    Wrong... you can run 1 qt low, but do not run 1 qt high. Your crank will whip the oil into a foam which is very bad.
    Knowing this you will need a storage tank, a valve, a switch, an indicator light, and lines to hook it up. After designing details, building, photographing, and running it you can sell plans to the no time home builder.
    All this is already designed and for sale. There are very simple systems that cost very little money and use a solenoid to active at engine startup.
    Last edited by Lee Schaumberg; Today at 11:54 AM. Reason: To prevent loss of post
    No fair editing after a reply.... But I see you followed the links, or found more infor, and adding reams of it to your post, effectivly changing the whole meaning of your post...

    What is 'loss of post'? Adding paragraphs after a reply?
    Jim

    ------------------------------------------------
    Express 2000FT (hopeful - Again)

  6. #6
    Registered User Lee Schaumberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Northern Wisconsin
    Posts
    224

    Re: Don't Dry Start your Engine

    Hello

    This is a reply to some one that lied!

    When the storage container uses 2 qts to fill and you are down 3 qts that means the engine will be down a total of 5 qts before you prelube.

    If there is a system to prelube an aircraft (homebuilt) to buy tell us where and how much!

    When you spend a half of a hour writing a post and hit post and it comes back can't do it and you hit the blue arrow up in the left right under homebuiltaircraft the computer has nothing left!
    Last edited by Lee Schaumberg; October 15th, 2008 at 07:38 PM.
    Terribly Honest and Prompt
    Speak Softly and Build Nicely
    Remember if it doesn't go chrome it
    Up Up and Away

  7. #7
    LGM
    LGM is offline
    Registered User LGM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    53

    Re: Don't Dry Start your Engine

    Lee,

    Systems very similar to what your talking about have been around for 20+ years. I use one on my sprint car engine to make sure it stays lubed when cornering hard and at startup. They come in 1, 2 & 3 qt. sizes, are tapped with a "T" fitting into the engine oil supply galley. Mine has a manual valve, but there are some with electric solenoid valves that activate with the ignition.
    I think someone's already posted links for you to check out. Mines a Moroso and works well, and I've been told the Canton products work well also.
    Price varies, but depending on size & options it'll set you back 150.00+. These are all aluminum units, not carbon. I don't recall the weight of my unit, but I can tell you it's very light. (If there's one group of people more anal about weight than pilots it racers, and sprint racers especially.)
    I agree, pre-lubing is great idea, one that is often overlooked.

    Take care,

    L.G.M.

  8. #8
    Super Moderator Midniteoyl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    1,674

    Re: Don't Dry Start your Engine

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Schaumberg View Post
    Hello

    This is a reply to some one that lied!

    When the storage container uses 2 qts to fill and you are down 3 qts that means the engine will be down a total of 5 qts before you prelube.

    If there is a system to prelube an aircraft (homebuilt) to buy tell us where and how much!

    When you spend a half of a hour writing a post and hit post and it comes back can't do it and you hit the blue arrow up in the left right under homebuiltaircraft the computer has nothing left!
    I dont even know how to reply to that....
    Jim

    ------------------------------------------------
    Express 2000FT (hopeful - Again)

  9. #9
    Registered User Rhino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    SW Ohio
    Posts
    836

    Re: Don't Dry Start your Engine

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Schaumberg View Post
    If there is a system to prelube an aircraft (homebuilt) to buy tell us where and how much!
    Didn't Midniteoyl already do that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Midniteoyl View Post
    I dont even know how to reply to that....
    Nor do I. I'm not even sure what he meant. I'm guessing he was having problems posting, but I have no idea what he meant by someone lying.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    No trees were harmed in the transmission of this message. However, a rather large number of electrons were temporarily inconvenienced.

  10. #10
    Site Developer Jman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA!
    Posts
    2,387

    Re: Don't Dry Start your Engine

    When you spend a half of a hour writing a post and hit post and it comes back can't do it and you hit the blue arrow up in the left right under homebuiltaircraft the computer has nothing left!
    I'm pretty sure he meant that he hit the post button and nothing happened and then he hit the back button and it was gone. I've had it happen to me occasionally..... As for lying, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he probably meant that someone was not right about something. It's a figure of speech that I've actually heard several times where my wife is from in Eastern Kentucky. Lee, am I right?

  11. #11
    Super Moderator Midniteoyl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    1,674

    Re: Don't Dry Start your Engine

    Thats why one has to be careful in wording a post: text doesn't convey emotion, so it can be 'assumed' wrongfully.

    My apologies if this is so.
    Jim

    ------------------------------------------------
    Express 2000FT (hopeful - Again)

  12. #12
    Registered User expedition2166's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    bainbridge ga
    Posts
    137

    Re: Don't Dry Start your Engine

    being built a few fossil fuel burning apparatuses i have to say the ''dry'' startup idea has been passed around alot but I've pulled engines down that have been sitting for several years and the rod and mains would still have well more then enough oil in them still to prevent any damage ..........

    that said I do believe in pre oiling (pressurizing) before startup , low oil pressure is a dislike of mine ,the 5 per thousand rule some go by i prefer 10+ but most don't know that too much is just as bad as too little anytime you put any fluid under pressure the temp goes up and hot oil don't cool well ,as well as added stress on pump shafts gears etc....

    and moroso makes all you need

    and midniteoyl is right over oiling is bad crank windage will cause foaming and added stress on the crank and loss of power due to oil wrapping around the crank on most autos we have windage trays we add between the pan and block to ''scrape'' the oil from the crank although there is no actual scrapping there, if installed properly
    William,

    Take offs are discressionary, Landings are mandatory

  13. #13
    Registered User Lee Schaumberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Northern Wisconsin
    Posts
    224

    Re: Don't Dry Start your Engine

    Jman you are correct I just wrote a reply now and it went away again.
    The automotive suppliers do not make a unit that you would want to put on your airplane!
    Terribly Honest and Prompt
    Speak Softly and Build Nicely
    Remember if it doesn't go chrome it
    Up Up and Away

  14. #14
    Registered User expedition2166's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    bainbridge ga
    Posts
    137

    Re: Don't Dry Start your Engine

    theres nothing wrong with the kits auto suppliers sell

    if it wasn't for auto suppliers most planes wouldn't have all the gadgets they do have

    buy one send it to me and I'll stamp it FAA/PMA if thats what your looking for

    otherwise if the acft engines really needed one then they would come OEM with it
    William,

    Take offs are discressionary, Landings are mandatory

  15. #15
    Super Moderator Midniteoyl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    1,674

    Re: Don't Dry Start your Engine

    The automotive suppliers do not make a unit that you would want to put on your airplane!
    Why do you say that? They have been used successfully (Robinson V8) and other than being aluminum instead of carbon (which is not really good for this if you want it to last a long time), are just what you described. While running, you'd also have the benefit of brief pressurized oiling during aerobatic flying. Not exactly an inverted oiling system, but could save your butt.

    Jman you are correct I just wrote a reply now and it went away again.
    Weird. I wonder why this happening? Are you on dial-up?
    Last edited by Midniteoyl; October 16th, 2008 at 11:02 AM. Reason: kybd cant spell....
    Jim

    ------------------------------------------------
    Express 2000FT (hopeful - Again)

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Making the 1/2VW run the whole way
    By Ace_Plumber in forum Half VW
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: November 26th, 2012, 11:09 AM
  2. Trying an unproven engine - is it feasible, is it safe?
    By AB_Summit in forum General Auto Conversion Discussion
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: February 17th, 2012, 01:47 AM
  3. Hexadyne 2 cyl 60 HP engine
    By Wrongway John in forum Firewall Forward / Props / Fuel system
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: January 13th, 2012, 07:51 PM
  4. Objective Engine Discussion
    By Rick Maddy in forum General Auto Conversion Discussion
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: May 10th, 2010, 05:29 PM
  5. Engine Mounts
    By mstull in forum 2-Stroke Aircaft Engines
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: December 13th, 2009, 09:25 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts