BMW R1200 motorcycle engine

Originally Posted by Midniteoyl

kuba..

Just wanna say Welcome! You willingness to come here and help is truly appreciated.

I'll second that!

This is facinating experience that you have, kuba! Really good information. I've seen quite a few people ask about BMW motors here in the past - your first-hand information is a huge resource for that. Thank you!

It is possible to aeroconvert 1200 (If I did it - You can also), the main problem will be PSRU. I suggest Take-Of (Germany) or Polmotor (Poland), just buy&bolt.

Hi. I know that Take-off produce a PSRU with an (integrated)? clutch. I had not heard of Polmotor before, but I'll check it out. I had intended using the locally built (ie New Zealand made) Autoflight gearboxes. (Autoflight Reduction Gearboxes) They are widely used all over the world, and best of all, Neil Hintz who makes them, lives just down the road from me. I had thought to drive the engine over to him and get him to bolt the PSRU on. Available ratios: 2.21:1, 2.47:1 and 2.94:1

Duncan

Regarding wireing... it is just impossible to do this without electrical diagrams for exatly Your version.
To determine it - the bike VIN code number is necessary.
Diagrams You probably can obtain from BMW service center. (or from me, at least).

Because I plan to buy the entire bike, I will have the VIN number. If the local BMW dealer can't/won't supply, I will contact you direct. Thanks.

Duncan

If You want convert it, You must have few other elements also: as neutral gear sensor (it will not engage starter if missing), the bike key-lock and main bike display. This is modern engine controlled by CAN-bus and nothing is similar to the typical aircraft engine. Funny, but all lamps, starter and even horn is coming from ZFE unit.
Aerononversion is just carefully cut off the non necessary part of cables, simulate the neutral gear position sensor, and fit in single box the immobiliser antenna with the genuine bike key.

Hi. This sounds easy enough to do - especially if one has the original parts from the bike.

Question: Would you use the original EFI and ZFE? Is this possible? Or would I need to use a 3rd party ECU and program it? This would get round the immobiliser issue wouldn't it?

Duncan

Final questions:
Airbox: I will be using an 18" (45cm) spinner, which gives me a lot of room under the cowl, especially above the engine. If you visit my gallery, you can see scale drawings of the plane. I'll also try to upload a scale drawing of the plane with the BMW engine fitted. I'm wondering if the original airbox might not fit?

Exhaust:
How long is the original exhaust on the bike? 2 metres? I was planning on getting the exhaust custom built, but keeping (1) all the original dimensions (2) the catalytic converter (3) the silencer (4) the same length and diameter pipes. ie Keep the lot - except that my exhaust will be routed differently.

I think one of the main reasons guys change the exhaust is because they either don't like the idea of the exhaust emerging from the fuselage half way back to the tail, or they don't like the weight. I am designing this from scratch, so routing the exhaust all the way back is no big issue. In fact, I rather like the idea of an almost silent airplane. And having it emerge half-way down the fuselage is also quite neat.

As for weight - I'm willing to live with a few extra kg's if I can get the extra power. I'm always amused by the extremes builders go to to shave off milligrams of weight, but cheerfully pile on great kilograms of personal weight every year. I think we need to keep weight savings in perspective.

Regards,
Duncan

In fact, I rather like the idea of an almost silent airplane. And having it emerge half-way down the fuselage is also quite neat.

Take it all the way back and exit towards the tail after the wing - ala mustang - Would be cool, could use exhuast augmentation, and the heat would keep your tootsie warm

WOOW!!! So many questions ;-)

I will answer in single post. Answers are for R1200, but remember -mine real knowledge about this version is limited, I converted only one of them. (Im "specialist" for 1100 and 1150)

1. PSRU -it allways is better idea have close relation to PSRU manufacturer, when You have uncommon engine/PSRU combination. If You can involved Mr Hinz for this task, just do it. It must be a good design based on gears. I can provide some suggestions based on our own PSRU, proven solution for R1150. Anyway - PSRU design isnt easy, we got the good results after ~30 broken gears/clutch and few re-designed PSRU cases. It isnt piece of cake... If You will need all available power, look at 2,94:1
(Aha - few guys asked me about home-made belt solution, it is tempting but I didnt see any succesfully PSRU for strong boxer based on any kind of belts like V, tooth, etc...)

2.BMW EFI - I did it based on genuine EFI from the bike
BMS-K and ZFE are connected by CAN-bus, ZFE is just like execution unit. Im 99.99% sure so is impossible reject ZFE. IMHO - it doesnt have sense, let the engine work as it was designed.
You mustnt connect horn :-), ZFE is working like automatic fuse unit, and also as diagnostics for connected items. (You will know every broken bulb ;-)

3. Aftermarket EFI - yes it look like the best idea for 1200. TAKE_OF is using Silent Hektik EFI completely, even with Silent's throats and injectors. (they also have doubled systems, as I remember)

4. It isnt bad idea too - just turn this part of jevellery to more normal engine by connecting simple carbs and any aftermarket ignition. It wiil have better power, but forgot about fuel economy.
I heard about one converted 1200 bike in such manner. Just for racing, but no other info available.

5 AIRBOX&exhaust in 1200... cannot help, have no any close to me. Maybe just use one of exhaust calculation programs, and make own one, tuned to rpm exactly you need? Catalyser isnt obligatory in airplanes ;-). Aha - short exhaust (Mustang&Spitfire like) are good for turbocharged enginees, in normal ones will give less output and HUDGE unacceptable noise

hope this helps.

regards

Kuba

Kuba,
Hi, and thanks for your very helpful post above.

Let me double-check to make sure I understand what is involved..

BMS-K and ZFE are connected by CAN-bus, ZFE is just like execution unit. Im 99.99% sure so is impossible reject ZFE. IMHO - it doesnt have sense, let the engine work as it was designed.
You mustnt connect horn :-), ZFE is working like automatic fuse unit, and also as diagnostics for connected items

It appears that the ZFE is the main culprit. It interfaces with the EFI (BMS-K), and also acts as the digital fuse box, as well as raising alerts if it detects any irregularities. I have been informed by my local BMW agent that the ZFE logs faults if anything goes wrong, or if a sensor is missing. He says that because there are so many sensors inputting data into the ZFE that it is a nightmare - the ZFE logs dozens of faults, and can shut the engine down if it gets too many faults.

My understanding of engines is relatively basic, and I would get qualified people to do any engine work for me. However, my understanding is that an engine is (basically) a bunch of pistons connected to a crank below and valve gear up top. Add gas and spark and away it goes. The R1200 is no different. So why not throw the ZFE away and install old-fashioned fuses where required? A 3rd party EFI CPU should be able to manage the fuel/spark issues. I can't see what is different from any other engine. No need to immobilisation codes, or BMW keys, or error logging. Just a basic engine running simply.

Would this work?
Duncan

Duncan,
Using genuine EFI and parts are cheapper, but pls note : German Take_Of used aftermarked Silent Hektik as EFI.
If they did it, You do too.

If You have familiar any other system fit to 1100 - 1300cc engine, it probably can work with BMW.
One of main problems will be sensorrs, in this cause You will need install aftermarket sensors into BMW. it can be mechanical problem.

Problems with ZFE is - You just cant reject is from genuine wireing, as long it is the part of whole EFI system. BMS-K will not work without it, even if most most important sensors are connected to BMS-k not ZFE (here are bulbs, starter and similar stuff). I see no any problem with ZFE, but immobiliser. (Aha - I tested it: if immobiliser will be broken during flight, Your engine will still running. You just cant possibility to the next start-up.).

Im not sure about any shut down the engine by ZFE, it just put informations on rider dispaly. I tested the disconnection of sensors when engine is running, only few of them shut it off (neutral gear position, hall sensor and as I remember - throttle position sensor). Rest of them can be problematic, but engine will still running without it.

regards

Kuba

One of main problems will be sensorrs, in this cause You will need install aftermarket sensors into BMW. it can be mechanical problem.

Hi,
OK, this seems to be something which will need to be addressed. What sensors would one need? At very least, an engine position sensor. What else?

Problems with ZFE is - You just cant reject is from genuine wireing, as long it is the part of whole EFI system. BMS-K will not work without it, even if most most important sensors are connected to BMS-k not ZFE (here are bulbs, starter and similar stuff). I see no any problem with ZFE, but immobiliser. (Aha - I tested it: if immobiliser will be broken during flight, Your engine will still running. You just cant possibility to the next start-up.).

Then bugger the ZFE and the entire wiring system. Throw the entire wiring loom away. Sounds FAR too complex for its own good. Just the engine, Link ECU, basic sensors, physical fuses and that's it.

Duncan

Duncan,

I just opened mine notes from 1200 aeroconvesion, good so all diagrams are still here...

BAck to the issue - the ZFE have bulbs, horn and operating switches connected only. And connection to BMS-K unit. During aero conversion I made permanent connection on the inputs for brake switches, If I remember correctly, bike rider must press the brake before he run the engine. BMS-K probably will not engage the starter without "brake pressed" signal, it can came by CAN-bus from ZFE only...

IMHO: on ZFE doesnt exist any device connected, which can be cause for shut off engine due normal ride. I not want to blame Your BMW mechanician, but it look like typical man scared with to many "devill electronic"

Two position lamps must be connected/simulated permanently, if You not want lamp warning on the engine display. (In Europe bikers had to have position lights still on)

Generally the ZFE wasnt any problem for this conversion, I have no any more notes in my workshoop notebook.

You wrote:
"Just the engine, Link ECU, basic sensors, physical fuses and that's it."
Exactly right. thats why Im in love with R1150.
50 cc isnt big difference. Motronic 2.4 is faaar simple, whole solution is proven by thousand hrs in many crafts.
(Im not alone with BMW project, we are bunch of fellows around flying school near Ostrava in Czech Republic, typical plane got ~1500hrs/year, so it is the good place for tests)

best regards

Kuba

So, I have access to a BMW K1200 GT (salvaged) with all ECM's and other modules. It is a water cooled, 112hp engine. My interest is in trikes however - so mounting issues would be variable. I know nothing about how to get started - but in relation to a Rotax 912, I must pose the question. Is it possible to puchase the salvaged (K series) BMW - strip the engine/parts down to the transmission - purchase a convestion kit from Kuba - purchase a frame for mounting the engine into - ...a wing... and go flying?

Sorry to come late to the discussion, but I'd like to add my $.02. I have lived with a BMW R1150GS for the last 8 years, and a BMW R1100GS for 3 1/2 years before that. I do not know about the R1200 engines, so cannot comment on those.

Not all 1100/1150/1200 engines were dual spark. Not sure how hard it would be to do it. I do not believe the dual spark have a coil per plug, but use siamese wires from a single coil.

The fuel injection works off a single oxy sensor in the catylitic converter. I think the engines have a mass airflow sensor under the lid of the aircleaner, but I am not positive and it could be air temperature. It is also hooked to the Hall effect sensor (timing).

There are several cat code plugs available, that will allow the use of regular gas instead of premium, but mileage and power will be decreased. You plug these into a socket in the fuse box.

The aftermarket catalytic converter eliminator pipes have the oxy sensor bung already there to accept the oxy sensor. With these you will notice lower weight (stock exhaust weighs 24 lbs. and eliminator pipe weighs less than 5 lbs.), and better power. I have used a BMP Racing pipe on my 1100GS, and a Two Brothers Racing "Y" pipe on my 1150GS (with a stainless SuperTrapp internal baffle slipon). BMW endorses Akropovic for the 1200's, but also endorsed Staintune and a couple others and sold these thru their dealerships.

Eliminating the Oxy sensor will shift the ECU to a default "limp home" mode with much reduced power and much greater fuel consumption.

The aftermarket ecu systems allow you to fiddle with the power much easier than the BMW parts rigid parameters, and cost around $250-300US. You install a circuit board onto the BMW ECU and plug some jumpers into the injector wires. This gives you an interface for adjusting the idle, midrange, and power circuits while you fly/drive.

I do not have an aftermarket ECU, andI have gone from sea level to 12,500 feet without so much as a hiccup from my engine! I have logged 46,000 miles on my latest bike without a single trip stopping problem. I drive this bike in daily commutes in all weather, frequently starting right up with frost all over it and running to work just fine, at a very spirited clip... I ride everywhere at a spirited clip... These engines are tough!! Properly maintaned, these bikes are going 150-200.000 miles without engine problems.

The GS will run all day long at 7000 rpm with no problems. I would suggest you make use of the high torque around 5500-6500 rpms instead (where torque and HP meet). At 3500 rpm (70 mph) my bike starts to really open upand at 4000 it just sings (80 mph). 4500 at 90 mph (just checked this morning). I can dial in where I want my torque with the SuperTrapp by adding or removing baffle rings...and it's USFS approved! Check the HP and torque curves for your particular model bike.

I am currently looking at an 1150GS engine from a burned bike and if it comes with the throttle bodies and computer so much the better. Parts are very desireable for these bikes and you could sell off the rest of it to reduce total costs, or to offset the reduction gearbox and prop costs.

The biggest gripes have been..

1) the early 1100 engines having main seal problems. This engine uses a single main seal. Later 1100's and all 1150's used 2 main seals for better oil control.

2) the cam chain tensioner was redesigned and is a retrofit to earlier engines. Don't let the parts counter guy try to give you a new replacement, but insist on the upgrade retrofit part. It has a redesigned piston and different spring and works much better. Bring your part in with you...

3) they have to keep putting gas into it cause it eventually runs out.

If you're interested in more info, there are a number of sites dedicated to these bikes (IBMWR, ADVRIDER.COM, and search Rob Lentini)

Hi,
I have managed to find a 2004 BMW R1150 bike (65k kms) which has been in a smash. Engine is fine, but bike can no longer be registered. Asking $3k for whole bike. Thought I might offer $1500 for engine only.

Thoughts?

Regards,
Duncan

Hi Duncan:
My thoughts, (Been smashed x Unrepairable/gov says noreg.=$1k or less. You can always raise the offer, but you can't lower it. Get it as cheap as you can. Insurance should have already paid him. Anything more is gravy. (yeah I'm a cheap b@#%^ard )